Evolution: more genomic evidence of pre-planning Part One (Evolution)

by dhw, Thursday, May 06, 2021, 12:34 (1295 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I don’t know what you mean by “taking excess neurons with it”. The brain shrunk 150 cc BECAUSE complexification (“tailoring”) made certain cells unnecessary. Your last sentence simply means that anyone with a crystal ball would have been able to forecast that hundreds of thousands of years later, certain hitherto essential cells would no longer be necessary.

DAVID: You can couch it in any terms you wish but excess cells were on board the moment sapiens big brain arrived.

It is your theory that your God popped in to give us cells which we were no use. At the same time, you tell us that “God added extra cells so we could tailor our brain to our free-willed new uses.” If the extra cells enabled us to “tailor” our brain, how could they have been excessive? You still refuse to even consider the point that the brain RESPONDS to new requirements, and therefore it is perfectly logical to propose that the original addition 315,000 years ago was IN RESPONSE to a new requirement. The new cells (which you have grudgingly agreed must have had some “light” use) would have continued to perform their original function, and for all we know are still doing so, since we don’t know which cells BECAME excessive 250,000 years later, when enhanced complexification took over. Some of your post repeats the same muddle, so I will just repeat individual quotes before moving on:

DAVID: New or not, some excess cells were discarded. Keep straining to ignore an excess.

Some cells BECAME excessive after 250,000 years. Stop straining to equate the cells which BECAME unnecessary with the original cells which were necessary then and might still be necessary now.

DAVID:It is of no matter which cells were discarded. The brain ended up with an excess. The bold is your absurd interpretation. We cannot know which cells and it is of no matter as you struggle with my clear concept God added extra cells so we could tailor our brain to our free-willed new uses.

It matters because you keep claiming that your God gave us excessive cells 315,000 years ago. Yes, the brain ENDED UP with an excess, after complexification had rendered certain cells redundant, but we don’t know which ones. See above re "tailoring".

dhw: The hippocampus example tells us that even now the brain is capable of adding new neurons in response to new requirements, and so there is no reason to assume that it did not do precisely that in the past.

DAVID: All you can logically propose is previous brains could enlarge the hippocampus, but you want to stretch what we know.

Yes, my theory is an extrapolation from what we know: the current brain complexifies and expands autonomously in response to new requirements, and so it is not illogical to propose that it may have done the same in the past. On what knowledge do you base your theory that your God operated on past brains in order to insert unnecessary new cells for later use?

DAVID: Do you think early sapiens discussed general relativity theory?

dhw: Most modern sapiens can’t discuss general relativity theory! Why do you think anything less than general relativity constitutes “zilch”? All generations build on the “thoughts” of their ancestors. How do you know that no early sapiens ever wondered how we got here?

DAVID: We know earlier sapiens had lots of Gods to cover all natural phenomena.

So why did you claim that there was “zilch” abstract thought?

dhw: […] if cells were/are capable of autonomously making their own decisions both then and now, there is no reason at all to dismiss the possibility that they were given the same ability right from the start of life. Obviously still a theory, but can you fault the logic?

DAVID: I've agreed in the past that earlier brains might well have had complexification mechanisms.

You’ve forgotten your agreement that complexification works autonomously, and since the expansion of the modern hippocampus must also have been autonomous (unless God steps in and tells us what to remember), there is no reason to suppose that past expansion was not autonomous too.

dhw: And do you disagree that autonomous awareness of requirements and autonomous decision-making denote autonomous intelligence?

DAVID: My belief stands: God is only source of speciation and provided brains with the complexification instructions as information in the neurons' genomes. That provided the necessary automaticity.

NOT automaticity!!! Autonomy! And no matter how much you fiddle around with terms like instructions and information, what this boils down to is that the autonomy of cells is the result of your God providing brains with the mechanism that gave them their autonomy. That is the theistic version of my theory. Thank you for accepting it even though you think you have rejected it. Now perhaps you will answer the bolded question above.