Evolution: more genomic evidence of pre-planning Part One (Evolution)

by dhw, Tuesday, April 20, 2021, 11:54 (1311 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The reason the brain complexifies is that it has extra neuron networks to work with....

dhw: Still totally ignoring the “response” evidence of how the brain works! The reason the brain complexifies, as we know from modern science, is that it has to adjust itself in order to meet new requirements.

DAVID: Not ignoring, but different interpretation: the extra cells allow a greater degree of complexity by having more neurons to work with from the start.

You are stating the blindly obvious, and ignoring the point that the only brain we know operates by RESPONDING to new requirements. It does not change in anticipation of new requirements, which is the reason you give for brain expansion.

DAVID: […] This is why I raised the point that the initial lifestyle requirements for early sapiens hardly differed from erectus.

dhw: […] . You simply keep ignoring the point that all lifestyles prior to late sapiens were based mainly on survival...The simple example I gave you was: the hunter with a brand new spear is still a hunter.

DAVID: I was only showing you complex use uses lots more brain than simpler use, a truism you constantly ignore.

I responded to your point that early sapiens’ lifestyle hardly differed from erectus, which according to you means that the newly expanded brain contained excess cells that were only used later. I pointed out that according to my theory, the improvements that required additional cells (e.g. the design, making and use of the spear) would not have changed the lifestyle. The hunter with a spear is still a hunter.

dhw: Even with your own theory, why would your all-knowing, always-in-control God give us excess cells which turn out to be redundant? […]

Still no answer.

DAVID: The advantage of the extra cells I presented above, to allow the greatest degree of complexity to cover all new current needs as efficiently as possible.

You’ve got it! In ALL cases of expansion including our own, the extra (not excessive) cells covered the new need, and then all current needs, through complexification. Only when NEW needs arose which the existing quantity of cells could not cover through complexification did expansion (the addition of cells) take place. However, 250,000 years after the last (sapiens) expansion, the brain could not expand any further, and so the cells’ ability to complexify was enhanced.

DAVID ...and we find a very high degree of complexity in our brain that has no resemblance to other primates. […]

dhw: Why do you keep repeating what we already know? The matter in dispute is how this very high degree evolved. You insist that your God kept operating on all the hominins and homos, enlarging their brains in anticipation of future needs, and in our case giving us excess cells we wouldn’t need in the future!

DAVID: Because it is a matter of interpretation of what our brain contains: the special cortical organization of five neuron tiers is only ours and came by a recombination of an available extra number of neurons, by God's design.

There is no dispute over what our brain contains, and yes indeed, as I keep telling you, it is the enhanced ability to complexify (recombination of the neurons that had existed and been in use for 250,000 years) that enabled sapiens to meet all the new requirements. As regards “by God’s design”, my theory allows for him designing the autonomous mechanism of complexification (which you accept - unless you have now decided that all our thoughts are thought for us by your God) AND the mechanism for expansion (which for some unknown reason you do not accept).

dhw: […] apart from repeating your own preconceptions, you still haven’t given me one logical reason for rejecting this proposal.

DAVID: I reject your interpretation primarily as an attempt to avoid God...

As above, how can I be avoiding God when I accept the possibility of his designing the autonomous mechanism?

DAVID: … but I show you a logical interpretation as to how the excess cells are used to create our very special brain.

They are not excessive if they are used to create our special brain! But once again: in my theory they were used until our enhanced ability to complexify made them redundant. And you still haven’t told us why your God would give us a load of useless extra cells.

DAVID: We do not know when this special arrangement of five tiers of neurons happened, but based on the evidence of how sapiens easily developed brain use and lifestyle, starting with language 70,000 years ago our brain is obviously very different I would then guess even from Neanderthal's bigger one. It is not size. It is complexity that makes the difference. Adler's point fits.

No one is denying that our brain is “very different”, and it has taken you a long time to stop harping on about size and to accept the point that I have been making ever since this discussion began: sapiens, like every other homo before him, would have used all the cells of his expanded brain until 250,000 years ago, when the brain could expand no further, and so ENHANCED COMPLEXIFICATION TOOK OVER (and rendered previously essential cells redundant). You’ve got it at last: in our case it is not size but complexity that makes the difference.