Cosmologic philosophy: what is time (Introduction)

by dhw, Friday, January 20, 2017, 17:40 (2864 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Of course there is a sequence of before, now and after. That is understood. If God is eternal, He exists out of any time concept. Time begins as the universe starts, without question. We study and find the before sequences of events in time leading to us, even if we did not personally experience those events.

dhw:You accept that time exists as a sequence of before, now and after, and nobody has a clue what happened before the big bang (if the big bang happened), but if there was a before the big bang, you still have a sequence of before and after. If there is a God who caused the big bang, he must have existed before he caused it, and unless he had been totally inactive throughout eternity until then, he may well have created other causes and effects, or befores and afters. In any case, how can he make the changes from non-universe and non-life to universe and life without being “inside” time – unless you reject my before-and-after definition? All of this, as well as your own last sentence, clearly shows that time is NOT a human construct which is “all in our minds”, so why do I get the impression that you are trying to disagree with me?!

DAVID: Yes, we disagree. God is eternal, unchanging. Time involves sequences of change. He creates change in producing this universe and the time within it as it evolves and changes. He may well have created other events at points in eternity. Note I used the word 'points'. I view eternity as outside of time as humans construct it.

You have agreed that time exists independently of humans, and so it is not a human “construct”. I have no idea what authority enables you to state that your eternal God is unchanging. Is it impossible for him to learn anything? But even if he knows absolutely everything in advance, do you think he is unaware that all the changes he makes entail a before and after, and do you think he thinks the before and after have no reality? You may believe he himself is not changed by the sequence of before and after (you can impose any characteristic you like on him), but that does not mean he is “outside time”, even if you think he twiddles his immaterial thumbs for a few billion chunks of eternity between his befores and afters.