Unanswered questions (General)

by dhw, Saturday, August 03, 2019, 10:11 (1938 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: OK, he chose to start evolution (not just humans) with bacteria. But that does not explain why he "had to" create every non-human organism that preceded H. sapiens, which is the point at issue here.

David: What you totally miss here is the history of evolution. Starting with the agreement that God chose to evolve humans from bacteria, it is patently obvious that the known history of evolution tells us what He did. The history tells us He decided what He had to do!!! I don't know why you cannot recognize this logical line of reasoning.

What you “totally miss here” is that the "known" history of evolution tells us that ALL forms of life evolved from bacteria. There is no consensus even among theists that God’s one and only reason for creating life was to evolve (which to you means “specially design”) H. sapiens by starting with bacteria! The theistic version of history can only tell us what he did, not what he intended: that is your personal interpretation of the history and of his mind.

dhw: [following a list of “had to" quotes]: “He knew ‘He had to create’ everything else before he got to humans.” Over and over again. And when I ask why he had to create dinosaurs and whales’ flippers and the weaverbird’s nest, I am told that they had to eat or be eaten by one another to keep life going, and when I ask why that was necessary for an always-in-control God with just one single purpose, I am told we are not privy to his reasons.

DAVID: All this just illustrates your total confusion about my line of reasoning. If God chose to evolve, history tells us what He decided to do.

And he decided to produce a vast bush of life, the latest form of which is H. sapiens. But according to you, despite his total control, he “had to” specially design dinosaurs and whale flippers and weaverbirds’ nests before he could design the only thing he wanted to design. This is so illogical that you have “no idea” why he chose such a method – we are not “privy” to his reasons.

Dhw: Yes, we are unique in our level of consciousness and our resultant intelligence, but that does not mean that the whole history of life has been solely geared to the creation of us! Maybe H. sapiens is just part of a much broader purpose. (Tony will perhaps provide a religious one, but I am thinking more in your own terms of the painter and his paintings.) However, there is no point in my yet again repeating my list of logical alternatives.

DAVID: What this tells us is that you love to enter God's mind and question the evolutionary history He created. To what purpose? Just part of your doubting the presence of a designing mind (God). Adler's reasoning tells us we are God's primary purpose. You are not required to accept it.

I do not question the history, I question your interpretation of it. I have deliberately offered you alternative THEISTIC interpretations which are absolutely not part of my doubting God’s existence. You cannot even find any theists who support your claim that God “had to” create whale’s flippers and the weaverbird’s nest in order to keep life going until he could fulfil his one and only purpose of designing us! I note, however, that once more you fall back on “primary purpose”. Then please tell us his other purposes, as this might open the door to a more logical view of the history. I don’t know why you keep falling back on Adler – it is your reasoning I do not accept, and you yourself admit that you have no idea why your God would have chosen such a method (specially designing millions of non-human life forms to eat or be eaten) to fulfil such a purpose (specially designing H. sapiens).