Unanswered questions (General)

by David Turell , Sunday, May 12, 2019, 20:40 (2023 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I've simply chosen to accept God's choice of method to create what He desires to create.

dhw: If God exists, and since we both accept that evolution happened, we both accept that he used evolution to create what he wanted to create. Our disagreement is over how he used evolution and what he wanted to create.

DAVID: We both see the same history of evolution. You are the one fighting with God's choice. It cannot be explained, just accepted.

dhw: Yet again, I am not fighting your God’s choice but your interpretation of his choice.

My interpretation is simply following the history of evolution. Humans are very special per Adler, so if God is in charge, He determined they would arrive, and they did. Simple.

DAVID: If you accept the possibility that God ran the progressive complexity of advancing evolution, and humans are the current last event, than obviously they must be accepted as a goal. You are arguing that other goals might be coming.

dhw: That is absolutely not what I am arguing! My argument is that if H. sapiens was the only goal (you keep switching to “a” goal, but refuse to acknowledge any other goal), it makes no sense to claim that your always-in-control God specially designed millions of other life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders, and did so in order that the life forms could eat or not eat one another before he specially designed the only thing he wanted to design. Please stop trying to divert attention away from a scenario concerning which you admit that you “have no idea” why he would have chosen such a method.

Of course, I cannot know why He made his choice of method. You are the one who demands an interpretation, and you constantly imply, why is it that God waited so long to produce us? Why not, since He is eternal and time means nothing to him..

dhw: As usual, you have avoided the point of the [free will] analogy, which is your claim that your God does not wish to relinquish control. If he is prepared to let humans go their own way, why should he not be prepared to let evolution go its own way, perhaps in order to see where his experiment will lead, though always allowing for a dabble?

DAVID: Your analogy is very weak. It implies that now that humans have free will, we will run our own further evolution. Not at all likely.

dhw: I don’t know why you are unable to see that the analogy concerns God’s willingness to relinquish control. If he allows humans to take their own decisions, he is not controlling each individual destiny. You have even said you think he watches us with interest. So maybe he also created a system through which organisms did their own designing, and again he could watch the results with interest. The analogy concerns his willingness to relinquish control.

Control of human actions is never equivalent to a control of evolution itself! You are straining at gnats!

dhw: Perhaps now you will respond to the point that relinquishing control could be part of a purpose, and that producing humans is hardly a purpose in itself without there being a purpose for producing humans!

DAVID: We have discussed many times the many possible purposes God might have had to produce humans. They are all logical assumptions, but must remain just that since God is not talking to us. We continue to differ in our individual views of God's personality, in which I see Him as highly purposeful and very assured in how to reach His goals. That is not your view.

dhw: If he exists, I would also see him as highly purposeful and very assured in how to reach his goals. And I have offered you logical alternatives concerning his purposes and his methods. The only option you have offered for these is so illogical that even you have admitted time and again that you have no idea why he would have chosen it. So maybe he didn’t.

I have a perfect right to accept God's choice of method, which I view is entirely logical. You have again totally misinterpreted my discussions. Common descent is something we both accept as a method of evolution. God chose to evolve. I fail to see your unreasonable problem.