Different in degree or kind: animal minds (Introduction)

by dhw, Friday, February 19, 2016, 18:11 (3200 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I believe you are twisting the intent of his article. Again he cited Nagel and bats. That is the point. What they show may not be what we think they show.dhw: The intent of Allen Greer's article is to persuade us that animals do not HAVE the same emotions that we have, and we are "anthropomorphizing" them. That is his word, not mine. I myself believe, as do the Cambridge scientists, that they HAVE the same emotions. You are of course welcome to join Greer in believing that animals do not HAVE these emotions and what they SHOW is not the fear, love, anger etc. that we feel, but I'd be very surprised if that was your belief.-DAVID: I have clearly said animals shows basic emotional reactions that we interpret as being similar to ours. However, per Nagel, whose book is key to this discussion, we have no idea what they are accurately internally feeling. Is it superficial, is it deep? -You are back to the implications of Greer's epistemology, and I can only repeat that I can't know how superficial or deep even YOUR emotions are by my standards. “Show reactions...we interpret as being...” is not my idea of clarity. Sticking to my original example, and regardless of degrees, superficiality, depth etc., do you or do you not agree that fear is a feeling that something bad is going to happen, and do you or do you not believe that animals HAVE (not just “SHOW”) this feeling? If you believe it, then there is no disagreement between us on this issue.-DAVID: We are at a different level. Yes, our brains have the same physiology as animal brains, but so much more complex, our emotional reactions can be very different and be convergent compared to animal reactions.-I have agreed over and over again that our brains and thoughts and awareness and reactions are more complex. See the next comment.-dhw: I had better repeat my claim for clarity's sake: our self-awareness is what has enabled us to develop ALL the attributes we have inherited from our animal ancestors, and these include emotions. These feelings existed long before we did!
DAVID: I'm glad you know that statement is totally true. that animals show raw emotion is true, beyond that not like us.-I do not know that anything is totally true. I said it was my claim. I believe that the emotion of fear as defined above is experienced by humans and by our fellow animals. And I believe such “raw emotions” are the basis of what you yourself have called our “evolutionary extensions”. What is being extended if the emotion that is “shown” is not real?-DAVID: The depth of emotion you are trying to give animals is romanticizing.-I do not recall discussing depth of emotion. Once again, we cannot know the depth of emotion experienced by our fellow animals or our fellow humans. We can only identify the emotion itself by our observation of behaviour, i.e. when animals “show” what looks like fear (as defined earlier) in situations that would engender fear, I believe that fear is what they feel. Do you or do you not agree?