Different in degree or kind: animal minds (Introduction)

by dhw, Thursday, February 18, 2016, 12:42 (2982 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: These quotes will suffice. If the evidence comes from observation and evolutionary theory, why is belief about animal emotions shaped by anthropomorphism and language? If someone threatens me with a gun, I will show all the symptoms of what we call fear. If you kick a dog, the dog will show all the symptoms of what we call fear. Fear is an emotion. Or the dog might even show anger - another emotion - and bite you back (serves you right!). 
DAVID: Of course animals, just as we do show raw emotion. But they do not conceptualize about it as we do. Or sit around discussing it as we do.-Why “show”? Your author has argued that animals do not HAVE these human-type emotions. Conceptualizing and discussing emotions is not the same as having them. I keep emphasizing that our self-awareness is what has enabled us to develop ALL the attributes we have inherited from our animal ancestors, and these include emotions. -dhw: Clearly he has failed to notice the inescapable truth that we can never know what it is like to be another human being.
DAVID: Solipsism! You are right.-Thank you.-dhw:If we can't KNOW it, let's ignore the evidence and let's not even keep an open mind. Let's just tell people animals don't feel emotions, because nobody can know whether they do or don't. Wonderful logic.
DAVID: I believe you are twisting the intent of his article. Again he cited Nagel and bats. That is the point. What they show may not be what we think they show.-The intent of Allen Greer's article is to persuade us that animals do not HAVE the same emotions that we have, and we are "anthropomorphizing" them. That is his word, not mine. I myself believe, as do the Cambridge scientists, that they HAVE the same emotions. You are of course welcome to join Greer in believing that animals do not HAVE these emotions and what they SHOW is not the fear, love, anger etc. that we feel, but I'd be very surprised if that was your belief.-dhw: Scientists Declare Animals Are as Conscious as Humans (and ... www.positivelypositive.com/2012/09/06/scientists-declare-animals...
"Last week, an international group of scientists signed The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness, proclaiming their belief—based on decades of research—that animals are indeed conscious and capable of experiencing human emotions."-DAVID: Of course animals are conscious. No on denies that. How much self-awareness do they have? A tiny amount. How much self-judgment? And I've agreed to basic emotions of their kind.-If you agree that they HAVE the emotions they show, it is absurd for you to try and defend an article which denies that they have them. The Cambridge Declaration was made because so many people, including some scientists, believe that animals are not conscious and do not share these basic emotions. The degree of self-awareness is not the issue here - no one will deny that ours is vastly in excess of that possessed by our fellow animals. I had better repeat my claim for clarity's sake: our self-awareness is what has enabled us to develop ALL the attributes we have inherited from our animal ancestors, and these include emotions. These feelings existed long before we did!
 
dhw: But perhaps we should ignore their decades of research, as they presumably haven't studied epistemology or read Adler.
DAVID: Note, I'm not ignoring any of it. I'm just not romanticizing it, and I love my dog and horses and my barn cat who gets her daily petting.-And I'm sure they appreciate it. It is Greer who is prepared to ignore the research because he has latched onto a fragment of epistemology. Acknowledging that animals have emotions is not a matter of romanticizing them.