Different in degree or kind; language (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, December 27, 2014, 13:36 (3619 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DAVID: A number of years ago I brought to this forum a number of double-blind prayer studies which seemed to show that group prayer did positively affect medical outcomes for the sick. Then came several studies which pointed out weaknesses in the first studies. The whole effort ended up in the 'suggestive' category where I think it still sits.
TONY: When you were a kid, and you asked your parent for something, did you get what you wanted ever time you asked? Of those times you didn't, was every one of them a case of your parent not wanting to give what you asked for, or were there generally reasons beyond your understanding (at the time)? Some prayers get answered, the way we want, some don't. Most often, for me at least, they have been answered in far better ways than I could have ever imagined.-Doesn't this suggest that God will only answer your prayers if what you want is what he wants? (See below, re God's will.)-TONY: As has become fairly typical, at the end of the day you have resorted to the old trope of "what about the children?" to try and disprove god, as if it would be some kind of merciful kindness to prolong someones life if that life would have been filled with pain, misery, and suffering for both them and those they loved, or as if whats in store here and now is so much better than what is in store later.-I presume this answer is meant for both David and myself, but I'll venture to speak for David too here by saying that neither of us is using this argument to disprove God! Nor are we claiming that praying for the life of a child means a desire for the child to live on in pain and suffering! I am questioning the purpose and usefulness of prayer. I pointed out that no matter whether it's thumbs up or down, the faithful can always respond, “It's God's will”, which you categorically denied. You have quoted but not responded to this part of my post, which contains the basis of my querying the point of prayer.
 
TONY: They could respond that way, but they would be wrong, and it would demonstrate a lack of biblical knowledge on their part. (Ecc 9:11) "I have seen something further under the sun, that the swift do not always win the race, nor do the mighty win the battle,+ nor do the wise always have the food, nor do the intelligent always have the riches,+ nor do those with knowledge always have success,+ because time and unexpected events* overtake them all."-Dhw: So if the child dies, it's NOT God's will? The quote appears to be telling us that sometimes we do and sometimes we don't get what we want/deserve/think we deserve. Very true, whether God exists or not. But if, as you say, the outcome does NOT depend on God's will, and if it doesn't depend on our own efforts and qualities, I can only conclude that the outcome is a matter of chance. The same applies if we pray for others (I deliberately chose the example of a sick child and not one of self-aggrandisement). God's will, or chance? Either way, your response suggests that apart from pleasing God by telling him how wonderful he is, prayer as a means of communicating with God is a futile activity.-So let me ask you directly: what do you see as the point of prayer?