Different in degree or kind: animal minds (Introduction)

by dhw, Wednesday, February 17, 2016, 17:46 (3202 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: A thorough discussion of animal emotions, their possible quality and the fact that probably can be nothing like our emotions:
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/45330/title/Opinion--On-Animal-Em... -QUOTE: "Virtually every human emotion has been attributed to animals, and assertions that nonhuman animals have emotions “just like people” are frequent. Evidence to suggest animals have emotions comes from two sources: observations of animal behavior and inference from evolutionary theory".-QUOTE: "Beliefs about animal emotions are shaped by anthropomorphism and language.”-QUOTE: "The inescapable truth is that, even if some animals are emotional beings, we will never know how those emotions are experienced. The philosopher, Thomas Nagel, sign-posted this epistemological dead-end concisely in 1974, when he pointed out we can never know what it is like to be a bat. Hanging upside down in the dark in a batman suit just won't cut it."-David's comment: This answers dhw's opinions about animal emotions and that we evolved ours from them. Read the full article for the full flavor. Adler would be pleased!-These quotes will suffice. If the evidence comes from observation and evolutionary theory, why is belief about animal emotions shaped by anthropomorphism and language? If someone threatens me with a gun, I will show all the symptoms of what we call fear. If you kick a dog, the dog will show all the symptoms of what we call fear. Fear is an emotion. Or the dog might even show anger - another emotion - and bite you back (serves you right!). But hey ho, your author has embraced epistemology, so let's look at the implications of the dead end.-Clearly he has failed to notice the inescapable truth that we can never know what it is like to be another human being. Just as I do not know whether the red that I see is the red that you see, I can never know whether what you feel is what I feel. What evidence do I have that you do? Observation of your behaviour, perhaps? (Ring a bell?) Your author should carry his thesis even further. Not so long ago, the epistemological dead-end enabled slave traders to convince themselves that people with black skin did not feel what white-skinned people felt. But your author is right, we cannot KNOW what any creature (human or otherwise) outside ourselves actually feels, so that is apparently good reason to ignore the findings and conclusions of experts, not to mention billions of lay people, who have spent their lives living with and observing animal behaviour. Ah well, go ahead and kick your dog and see how joyfully he greets you.-As for evolutionary theory, I would suggest that very few species would survive without the emotion of fear, many animal species would certainly die out without a form of love (above all, parental), and I don't think animals of the same species would fight without some kind of emotional motivation (ambition, envy, greed, anger)...but yes, these are all human words, and we can never KNOW if animal behaviour is a put-up job just to kid us that they feel what we feel. (“A dog doesn't have to love you; it just has to behave as if it does.”) If we can't KNOW it, let's ignore the evidence and let's not even keep an open mind. Let's just tell people animals don't feel emotions, because nobody can know whether they do or don't. Wonderful logic. -However, Adler would have been happy, and you are happy too, and why should you take any notice of dhw when Allen Greer, a biologist, agrees with you? But here's another surprise for you. I am not alone. Try this - a declaration made on 7 July 2012:
	 
	Scientists Declare Animals Are as Conscious as Humans (and ... 
 www.positivelypositive.com/2012/09/06/scientists-declare-animals...-"Last week, an international group of scientists signed The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness, proclaiming their belief—based on decades of research—that animals are indeed conscious and capable of experiencing human emotions.
While that may sound like a “duh” kind of declaration to animal-lovers, it's actually a big deal for such a prominent group of scientists to openly acknowledge that they believe nonhuman animals possess conscious states similar to humans. Much of the research done in the medical and biological sciences relies on animal test subjects, so this statement could have significant implications in coming years.
“Convergent evidence indicates that non-human animals have the neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological substrates of conscious states,” write the scientists. The list of animals named in their declaration includes all mammals, birds, and even the octopus."-But perhaps we should ignore their decades of research, as they presumably haven't studied epistemology or read Adler.