Different in degree or kind; language (Introduction)

by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Saturday, December 27, 2014, 18:54 (3619 days ago) @ dhw

TONY: When you were a kid, and you asked your parent for something, did you get what you wanted ever time you asked? Of those times you didn't, was every one of them a case of your parent not wanting to give what you asked for, or were there generally reasons beyond your understanding (at the time)? Some prayers get answered, the way we want, some don't. Most often, for me at least, they have been answered in far better ways than I could have ever imagined.
> 
> Doesn't this suggest that God will only answer your prayers if what you want is what he wants? (See below, re God's will.)
> -As a parent, did you ever WANT bad things to happen to your children? Could you, or should you, prevent every bad thing from happening to them? Did your children ever see something positive that you did as something negative, or something negative as something positive? -Consider this: Your kid asks for sweets. They have not had dinner yet, and are diabetic. You do not give them sweets. Your kid screams "I hate you, you never give me what I want!" You send them to their room for punishment for talking back. Who was right, who was wrong? Did you, as the parent WANT to with hold sweets, or was it in their best interest? Did you WANT to punish them, or was it in their best interest? -Your argument here is that of the child begging for sweets. You want what you want when you want it, assuming that you know what is best for you at all times. Yet, the bible says, "it does not belong to man even to direct the way in which he walks". Not that we don't have free will, but that we will always manage to screw it up somehow. We walk as children walk, all full of energy and tripping all over ourselves. --> TONY: As has become fairly typical, at the end of the day you have resorted to the old trope of "what about the children?" to try and disprove god...
> 
>..I am questioning the purpose and usefulness of prayer. I pointed out that no matter whether it's thumbs up or down, the faithful can always respond, “It's God's will”, which you categorically denied...-The faithful could also respond with "One cross each, line on the left", but that wouldn't make them right. I actually DID respond to this. SpecificallyEcc 9:11) "I have seen something further under the sun, that the swift do not always win the race, nor do the mighty win the battle,+ nor do the wise always have the food, nor do the intelligent always have the riches,+ nor do those with knowledge always have success,+ because time and unexpected events* overtake them all."[/i]-You are again making the argument of a child wanting sweets. Why doesn't daddy give me what I ask for? If he doesn't give me what I want all the time, why bother asking? Obviously, because daddy doesn't give me my every desire than he is not real, doesn't hear me, or doesn't care.-
> 
> Dhw: So if the child dies, it's NOT God's will? The quote appears to be telling us that sometimes we do and sometimes we don't get what we want/deserve/think we deserve. Very true, whether God exists or not. But if, as you say, the outcome does NOT depend on God's will, and if it doesn't depend on our own efforts and qualities, I can only conclude that the outcome is a matter of chance. The same applies if we pray for others (I deliberately chose the example of a sick child and not one of self-aggrandisement). God's will, or chance? Either way, your response suggests that apart from pleasing God by telling him how wonderful he is, prayer as a means of communicating with God is a futile activity.
> 
> So let me ask you directly: what do you see as the point of prayer?-True, there is an element of chance. That is what the "..because time and unexpected events* overtake them all" means. That does not mean that every single thing is chance. There is also an element of pleasing God, so that is also true. -But to go back to my analogy of the child, is there any benefit to the child if they tell their parents "Thank you"? What about when they say "I'm sorry"? What about when they say "please"? -I am not speaking here of how those words affect the relationship with the parent, or whether or not it gets the child what they want. Rather, I am specifically talking about the direct benefit to the child of even using those words on a regular basis, the direct, immediate, positive benefit to the child. Doesn't the child benefit directly from developing a humble, thankful, attitude? Doesn't benefit them by making them aware of all the effort that has been spent on their behalf and of all the precious things in their life? And with that awareness, doesn't there come a form of responsibility, appreciation, perhaps even the desire to do the right thing so as not to hurt the parent that they love? And in developing that desire not to hurt their parent, don't they also develop the desire not to do the things which would displease their parents, thus protecting them from many, many injurious things? What about the benefit of the conversation. Isn't there some benefit to just being able to talk to someone that you know is listening, someone that loves you and cares? It is most certainly NOT a futile activity.

--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.