Evolution took a long time (Introduction)

by dhw, Monday, February 06, 2017, 16:40 (2847 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: You yourself have devoted a lifetime to delving into all the questions we discuss. You have even written two brilliant books about them. Why? Both of us are driven by a desire to make sense of the world we have been lucky enough to experience. We don’t and can’t know if God exists, or what he is like if he does exist, but we examine the world in order to find clues. That is why you tell us we are his “purpose”, we matter to him, he wants a relationship with us (you ask why else would he have given us our consciousness), he is a God of tough love who wants us to solve the problems he has set us. But you resent it if I offer you a different view – only then do you bridle at the attempt to delve.
DAVID: Your view constantly attempts to humanize Him. That is my objection to your delving. I simply state He wanted humans simply because humans are here, and based on how all primates have survived without our big brains, there is no reason for us to appear, unless evolution was driven to do it. After that I guess at His thinking without much faith in knowing if any of my guesses are correct.

The problem, then, lies in the way you express yourself. You declare your beliefs, vigorously defend them, and vigorously attack alternatives. But now you tell me you don’t have much faith in your “guesses”. So do you or do you not believe, for instance, that humans matter to God, that he wants a relationship with us, that he wants to communicate with us, but that he has no human qualities? Here are some quotes from your very recent posts:

“If we have consciousness we can communicate with Him. I can ask you why did He give us consciousness if not to communicate?”
“I believe in a tough-love God who expects us to solve problems.”
“I view God as a serious operative who never looks for entertainment as a purpose.”
“Both Adler and I do not accept anything human about God.”
“God is NOT human in thought.”
(Contrast this with your latest claim: “I have not stated that God has no traits in common with humans. He may very well.”)
“I don’t believe God has any smidgen of evil in Himself…That he allowed these results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve these problems…”

You have thought deeply about all these matters and you have reached conclusions. You believe in tough love (a clear humanization of God) and yet you reject boredom because that is humanizing God. If you don’t have much faith in your beliefs, then why not adopt a more conciliatory attitude towards alternatives? It is the vehemence and authoritarian tone of your arguments that create misunderstandings (if that is what they are). We can rejig this whole discussion around your latest post, as follows:

All we know is that humans are here. All theories concerning the reason are guesses. One guess is that there is a God who especially wanted to create beings with enhanced consciousness, perhaps because he wanted to communicate with them, or perhaps because he wanted to add a new dimension to the show he was watching. You favour the former. Perhaps humans matter to God, or perhaps they don’t. You favour the former. Perhaps humans created evil, or perhaps human nature reflects the nature of their creator. You favour the former.

Just try the gentle agnostic approach, and see how much simpler it is.