Evolution took a long time (Introduction)

by David Turell , Thursday, January 05, 2017, 18:20 (2879 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: We cannot differentiate, since all we can study are the genomes that are present now.

dhw: In order to decide whether an organism – ANY organism – is intelligent, we can study their behaviour by setting them problems.

The same old problem exists. In an animal with a brain we can study their mental capacities as I've presented over and over, from insects like ants, to crows, to primates, but at the single-celled level we still have the problem of how much automaticity is present, all or some automatic.

dhw: ...the complexities of dinosaurs evolving into birds, like the complexities of whale evolution, monarch migration and the blessed weaverbird's nest, do not denote that the whole of evolution was directed towards the production of humans.[/i]

DAVID: Not directly, but the appearance of teleology to reach humans is overwhelming to me.

dhw; Neither of us can find any reason why your God could not have reached humans without whale evolution, monarch migration and the weaverbird’s nest. This suggests to me that the history of evolution was NOT geared to the production of humans, although in a theistic scenario it is quite feasible that (a) they might have been dabbled as an afterthought, or (b) your God might have had some vague idea of creating a creature resembling himself in consciousness, and might have spent a few billion years experimenting. What is your objection to these scenarios?

Theoretically the all-powerful God of religions could have produced humans very directly, but we know He didn't. That is no reason to deny the idea that He had an evolutionary goal in mind, but used an evolutionary process.

DAVID: My approach assumes God is always in control to guide evolution to reach the current human form, which I believe is the final step, with no further human change. Total control means pre-planning, possible dabbling, and some degree of free-wheeling modifications edited by God as He sees fit.

Total control does not allow for freewheeling,

Yes it does. The organism freely tries a change and God approves or alters the change. The initiative starts with the organism, not God.

So far, so good. With my theist hat on, I can accept all of this.

DAVID: Humans were always the goal. I remind you other primates were living happily eight million years ago, without an advance to us required. But it happened. End of case.

dhw: That is the point at which, with my theist hat on, I must object to the extraordinary philosophical saltation with which you make this claim, as if all the arguments against it can be glossed over. No advance to any multicellular organism – including the whale, the duckbilled platypus, the weaverbird and all the dead dinosaurs – was “required”, since bacteria have survived perfectly well. The higgledy-piggledy history of evolution makes absolutely no sense if your almighty (= in "total control") God started out with the goal of producing humans.

Your theistic hat is always askew. You struggle to see the purpose I see. The requirement for the bush of life is balance of nature to supply energy for survival of life so evolution can cover 3.6-8 billion years of process.

xxx

dhw: I shall have to respond to the “conscious universe” article tomorrow, as I am now off to visit my newborn grandchildren!

Again congratulations as a proud Grandpa. But note, you are going to see a double miracle, the production of two humans from two eggs! All provided by God's mechanisms implanted into life, so complex, we understand only a tiny portion of it so far. How much complexity do you need before you surrender your agnosticism?