Evolution took a long time (Introduction)

by David Turell , Saturday, February 04, 2017, 22:44 (2849 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: : My complaint is you keep pushing me to analyze possible desires and motives that God might have. I don't logically know of any. My comments are just guesses that have no importance. I have simply concluded, as I've said before, humans are here. From that I've concluded God wanted that result. I propose nothing more. Because I do not want to humanize Him, as Adler warns He is a personality like no other personality. You are the one who struggles with humanization and create double standards.

dhw: Nobody "logically knows" anything about the origin of life and evolution, whether God exists or not, and if he exists what he is like or what his intentions were in creating life. ....I have not “pushed” you into these beliefs, and you have every right to believe what you wish to believe. However, I think I also have the right to challenge certain assumptions, especially if they do not seem to me to have any justification.

But it is you who does not accept God, although you offer the possibility that He might exist. But doubting Him you want to delve deep into his personality and desires, when we have no idea what his personality is like.

dhw: The current point at issue is that you and Adler claim to know that God does not think like humans. You believe his whole purpose in creating life was to create humans, but we mustn’t ask WHY he created humans. You ask why he would have given us consciousness of him if he didn’t want a relationship with us, but we mustn’t ask WHY he would want a relationship with us. Over and over again, you tell me that you see purpose in everything, but I mustn’t ask what that purpose is.

Because we work backward from what we know He created, we can guess at why He did it, but we have no logic to work with, only comparisons from how we operate. We don't know if He operates that way.

dhw: You assume that the being who you believe created good and evil, love and hate, and all the other facets of our existence has no experience of them within himself. Why should you assume that these are human inventions and that the inventor of humans, who according to you has total control over what comes into existence, is not himself inherent in all facets of that existence?

I don't believe God has any smidgen of evil in Himself. Evil is the result of what He has created: the physical forces of Earth, the evil in freedom-of-choice imperfect humans. That He allowed these results means He does not care if they happen. He has given us the power to try and solve those problems, and we are doing just that.

dhw: If there really is one supreme being who created the universe and life, then of course he is not human. But that does not mean he has nothing in common with humans.

What we have in common I believe is consciousness, nothing more. I believe consciousness could not develop from natural causes by itself, but from a pre-existing consciousness.

dhw: All we can do is speculate. Your beliefs as listed above are your speculations. I speculate (without belief) that if God exists, he may (note the hypothetical nature of the auxiliary) have created life in order to relieve his boredom. You say: “Both Adler and I do not accept anything human about God. Why do you?” I don't "accept" it. But I accept that it is possible. What authority do you have to reject the possibility that there is something human about him?

I don't reject it, but since we have no way of knowing, any guesses are wisps of nothing. Humans are here. That is a fact. That is solid. that leads me to say God wanted to produce humans. Anything beyond that is 'angels on the head of a pin'.

dhw: It is just as presumptuous to proclaim that he has no traits in common with humans as it is to proclaim that he does have such traits. We can only look at our world and try to extrapolate explanations from what we see. If God exists, why – in our speculations – should we NOT view the creation as a reflection of its creator?

I've given you my reflections as far as they can go with any degree of logic. You are the unbeliever who wants to uncover his thought processes. I accept Him without digging into that side of the considerations. I really don't understand why you bother. Are you seeking ways to approach a belief in him?