New Miscellany 1: theories and future of evolution (General)

by dhw, Thursday, May 29, 2025, 10:52 (4 days ago) @ David Turell

Evolution and “culling”

DAVID: As you fully know, there is no answer. If we make God the creator then evolution is His work and He becomes responsible for its inefficiencies and efficiencies. I accept all of it since I chose God.

dhw: You are still dodging! Yet again: the existence of God is not the subject here! What you accept is your own totally illogical interpretation of your God’s purpose for and use of evolution, which even ridicules him as being messy and inefficient. You have no answer to my criticism because you “fully know” that your theory is nonsensical.

DAVID: Evolution produced us. I say God did it. It is not nonsense except to you. Is there any reason for you to say it was a natural result?

Your evasions are getting beyond a joke. This whole discussion has been on acceptance of your premise that your God exists and designed evolution. The nonsense is your theory concerning why and how he did it, not whether he did it. You cannot think of a single reason why an omniscient, omnipotent God would choose what you yourself ridicule as a messy, cumbersome and inefficient means of fulfilling his one and only purpose. I have offered you three alternative THEISTIC theories, all of which you agree fit in logically with the history of evolution. At no time in this discussion have I said that evolution was a natural result of anything, though I have pointed out that atheists believe that life (and evolution) occurred by chance. Now will you please stop dodging the obvious fact that if even you can't find any logic in your own theory, it might be wrong.

Continued under Atheism

DAVID: You don't have to accept my God. I just don't like any you have invented.

dhw: Of course. You simply have faith in a theory which makes no sense, and pretend that my objections are somehow invalidated by my agnosticism. And yet you can’t even find any logical objection to my alternative theistic theories other than the fact they entail thought patterns and emotions like ours, although you accept that he probably has thought patterns and emotions like ours.

DAVID: You forget (conveniently) I approach God's attributes as allegorically equivalent to ours.

dhw: You forget that “allegorically” has no meaning in our discussions, because YOU know precisely what you mean when you speculate that your God might enjoy and be interested in his creations, might want to be recognized and worshipped, might or might not love us etc. Your question is whether he does or doesn’t, not whether he uses a different dictionary from ours.

DAVID: We don't know what dictionary God uses. That is a major point.

It is no point at all. You and I know what you mean when you talk of his enjoyment, interest, desire to be recognized and worshipped. If his dictionary defines enjoyment as dislike, interest as disinterest, recognition as ignorance, and worship as hatred, then so be it. That would simply mean, in your terms, that he does not enjoy etc. Please stop playing silly language games.

End of evolution?

DAVID: Evolution is over. […] What ‘new conditions’ do you imagine. I see none.

And:
DAVID: We've only been here 315,000 years with enormous civilized developments. What we develop is what will change in the future. The conditions of the Earth seem stabilized. Do you think there will be super humans?

dhw: It’s perfectly possible that there will be no humans at all. If, as you claim, evolution is over, that means there will be no more new species. You were unable to imagine any future changes to the planet, and I gave you a list, each item of which could result in the extinction of current species (including humans) and the birth of new species – which is precisely what has happened throughout the course of life’s history so far. That doesn’t mean the new species will be superhumans! They might be very simple forms of life. The only deciding factor will be their ability to survive in the new conditions.

DAVID: I can agree to that. The Earth could have destabilizing events.

dhw: In other words, you agree that evolution may not be over. Thank you. End of discussion.

DAVID: Evolution is over. Disasters to the Earth will simply kill species, including us.

The history of Planet Earth shows that disasters kill most species, but a small minority survives, and that small minority creates new species. The fact is, we have absolutely no idea what will happen in the next million years, let alone the next three billion years, and so you cannot possibly know that evolution is now over.