New Miscellany: more on fine-tuning (General)

by dhw, Thursday, February 27, 2025, 09:25 (7 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID:The fine-tuning principal DOES NOT include climate…Stop conflating the two.

dhw: Please stop making up rules as you go along. There is no “conflation”! You agree that life is impossible without a hospitable climate. Therefore a hospitable climate has to be part of the fine-tuning for life!

DAVID: It is conflation. The original principal refers only to the factors creating the universe as a life-allowing universe throughout the universe. Climates that allow life are a secondary consideration, areas that are climate friendly. IF you wish to conjoin the two that is fine.

I have no idea what you mean by the “original principle”. Our subject is your statement that “the entire universe is fine-tuned for life to appear.” You also say: “The physical makeup of this universe allows life to appear wherever there is a hospitable climate.” This means that life cannot appear where there is no hospitable climate, in which case quite clearly those parts of the universe that do not have a hospitable climate are not fine-tuned for life!

DAVID: God made the Earth hospitable for life as part of His goal.

dhw: That is just another way of saying your God “fine-tuned” the Earth for life. So what is this nonsense about life “popping up”, and “life decided to appear” wherever the climate is hospitable?

DAVID: On the Earth of course.

dhw: According to you, your God CREATED life on Earth, so according to you it did not pop up, and it does not have a mind of its own that makes decisions. In fact, your major evidence for the existence of your God is that life is too complex to have popped up on its own – so it must have been designed. And he must have “made the Earth hospitable for life” as part of his fine-tuning for life. And so far, Earth is the only place we know of that has been fine-tuned for life. It remains to be seen whether there are other places.

DAVID: Good summary, thank you.
And:
DAVID: I've accepted your new definition conflation of fine tuning understanding the two very different components, physical factors constructing this universe and local friendly climates.

Local friendly climates are not the only factor! You have accepted that life will not “pop up” or “decide to appear”, there is still no guarantee that the physical factors and the friendly climate will produce life, and your theory is that your God does whatever extra “fine-tuning” is needed for life to appear. All we actually know is that our own planet must be fine-tuned for life, other “localities” in the universe might possibly be fine-tuned for life, but we can say with absolute certainty that the entire universe is NOT fine-tuned for life.

Bird brains

DAVID: Cells are not intelligent enough to design a new type of organism.

dhw: And you still dodge the implications and complications of your theory compared to Shapiro’s. Your dodging is becoming ever more blatant. […]

dhw: […] We are now into theodicy and your efforts to ignore evil on the grounds of “proportionality”. Would you say that the inefficiency of your God’s use of evolution to fulfil his one and only goal, the deaths of millions of people through the failure of his instructions, and the suffering caused by all forms of evil knowingly created by your God are commensurate with the conventional view of your God as being all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful?

DAVID: Usual answer, God's good works far outweigh the bad side effects.

dhw: I know “proportionality” is your usual answer. That is what I have objected to, ending with a straightforward question, which as usual you simply dodge. An all-knowing God would have known the “bad side effects” which would result in millions of deaths from diseases and natural disasters, and suffering on a vast scale from the evil he knowingly allowed us humans to perpetrate. NB: This is not a complaint but simply a discussion concerning the possible nature of your God as the supposedly omniscient, supposedly omnipotent, supposedly all-good first cause of all that exists.

DAVID: What you have ignored is the good God does far outweighs the bad side effects.

I have not ignored your “proportionality” argument, but have pointed out again and again that proportionality does not make evil disappear, and it is the evil that throws into question the conventional belief in an all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing God. Please take your head out of the sand and stop pretending that evil isn’t a problem for theologians.