New Miscellany: theodicy, climate change, evolution (General)

by dhw, Saturday, March 08, 2025, 08:41 (1 day, 6 hours, 17 min. ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: [Monday March 3)…] I have accepted the Wilsonian view of fine-tuning in my statement.

dhw: […] since you have now explicitly accepted my argument, then of course we can close the discussion. Thank you.

DAVID: Yes, close.

dhw: Having accepted my definition, you now revert to the same ridiculous distortion of language which you started with. Please stop it.

DAVID: You must unlock your brain to this fact: the universe as constructed is fine-tuned for life. That is the cosmological level of the discussion. All 20+ factors must be exactly as they are or no universe like this will exist. The biological level is our Earth's readiness for life. Two separate but related requirements. I have accepted your Earth addition.

You must unlock your brain to the fact that “fine-tuning” relates to the final stages of any process. Of course there would be no life if there was no universe, but without the biological and environmental levels it is not “fine-tuned” for life. You would not have electric light, running water, heating or furniture in your home if you didn’t have a house. The basics come first, and the fine-tuning comes second. You accepted my definition on March 3rd, agreed that Planet Earth is the ONLY part of the universe that we know to be fine-tuned for life, and agreed to close this discussion.

Theodicy

dhw: You simply have no answer to my arguments. You refuse to acknowledge 1) that “proportionality” does not make evil disappear (= head in the sand); 2) that a God who cannot avoid creating evil, and sometimes even tries in vain to prevent it, cannot be labelled omnipotent; 3) that a God who knowingly creates evil in order to ensure that he is genuinely recognized and worshipped can hardly be labelled all-good.

DAVID: Those are your agnostic reasons. You worry about the one percent that is evil and ignore the good.

dhw: Your God’s possible nature has nothing to do with agnosticism. Theodicy recognizes the reality of evil, but you think the theodicy problem is solved if you shut your eyes to evil and focus only on the good! Head in sand.

DAVID: Without the good there is no evil.

What does that mean? If your God hadn’t created saints, we wouldn’t have had murderers? Of course we have good and we have evil, and the theodicy question is simply how an all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing God could knowingly create evil? Stop dodging.

Climate change
Timing a probable glacial period

DAVID: There are physical climate theories that counterintuitively say CO2 will flatten out.
And:
DAVID: The heat is needed! It is what will ward off glaciation is the point!
And:
DAVID: Still panicking. Moderate the heat a little and allow the heat to block the glaciation.

dhw: You have agreed that current practices must be changed to prevent the escalation of damage already being caused, accepted that the changes must be balanced against the need to avert social and economic disaster, praised USA for reducing carbon emissions, and criticized Brazil, India and China for not doing the same. Please tell me which of your agreements you now disagree with.

DAVID: Your unreasonable urgency.

Why is it unreasonably urgent to stop the damage ALREADY being done to our environment while pragmatically avoiding social and economic disaster? The unreasonable urgency is yours: you want to continue wrecking our environment NOW because of a counterintuitive prophecy of “flattening out” and another prophecy that the next Ice Age will occur in 11,000 years’ time. However, thank you continuing to agree with all the points I have raised above, so please stop disagreeing with yourself.

Evolution

DAVID: It is dog-eat-dog with a designed evolution creating humans.

dhw: Interesting. Instead of all evolution being geared to us and our food, you now seem to agree that your God might have created a free-for-all, but later intervened with dabbles to create humans. Please confirm.

DAVID: All one process with dog-eat-dog from the very beginning.

The free-for-all dog eat dog from the very beginning is the opposite of an evolution designed solely to create humans plus food. Humans as a new idea and a late dabble would neatly counter your ridicule of your God as a messy, cumbersome and inefficient designer.

EARLIEST WATER APPEARED

QUOTE: "These stars were huge, as much as 300 times as massive as our Sun. Their temperatures were high and they burned through their fuel quickly. And they died in supernovae that spewed new elements across the galaxy.”

DAVID: life requires water. That it appeared so early fits the theory of design.

All these massive stars specially designed to blow up in order to form just one piece of the enormous jigsaw puzzle that leads to conditions suitable for life on a single planet in a universe which even now consists of billions/trillions of heavenly bodies with no life at all. It reminds me of the theory that your designer also designed and then had to cull countless life forms in his efforts to create the only life forms he wanted (us plus food). No wonder you ridicule your God as a messy, cumbersome and inefficient designer.