New Miscellany: theodicy, climate change, evolution (General)

by dhw, Sunday, March 09, 2025, 11:55 (9 hours, 40 minutes ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: You must unlock your brain to this fact: the universe as constructed is fine-tuned for life. […]

dhw: You must unlock your brain to the fact that “fine-tuning” relates to the final stages of any process. Of course there would be no life if there was no universe, but without the biological and environmental levels it is not “fine-tuned” for life. […]. You accepted my definition on March 3rd [...] and agreed to close this discussion.

DAVID: It can't be closed. You have it backward. See today's entry from Ethan Siegel.

There are 26 essential constant factors that make this universe as it is:
https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/multiverse-explain-fundamental-constants/?utm_s...

QUOTES: "Importantly, these fundamental constants are needed to reproduce the Universe we have; if they were different, our Universe would be correspondingly different as well. (David’s bold)

"[…] we, observers who can measure the Universe, could only have arisen in a universe that took on values that allowed the emergence of intelligent observers to be physically possible.” (David’s bold)

Both statements totally accepted by me.

QUOTE: "In general, we call these classes of problems fine-tuning problems: as we can imagine that any such parameter, constant, or value could have been all over the map, and that significantly different possibilities would have led to vastly different outcomes. A Universe with:
"a much weaker electromagnetic force,
a much greater mass for the up and down quarks,
or a much greater cosmological constant,
would have never enabled the formation of stars and galaxies at all, much less rocky planets, complex molecules, and the possibility of life. (dhw’s bold)

DAVID: please read my bolds carefully. This is a specific universe of a type that allows life to appear anywhere in it. In any other form of universe life would not/could not happen. We observe the 26 constants but cannot explain the underlying mechanism that makes them the way they are. Secondarily, a life-friendly environment is required as on the Earth. This is the accepted version of fine-tuning.

The third quote is Siegel’s sole mention of fine-tuning, but he has left out the crucial biochemical and environmental fine-tuning. Of course the universe as it is ALLOWS life, or makes life POSSIBLE. But that doesn't mean that ”the entire universe is fine-tuned for life to appear”. Without biochemical and environmental fine-tuning, life could NOT appear, and the only place that we know has this fine tuning is Planet Earth. Therefore, as you agreed on March 3rd, the entire universe is NOT fine-tuned for life to appear. Please stop disagreeing with yourself?

Theodicy

DAVID: Without the good there is no evil.
And:
DAVID: Without life no evil people would exist.

So how does that explain why a supposedly all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing, first-cause creator of everything created evil people, murderous viruses, lethal “natural” disasters etc.? Did he want evil? Was he powerless to prevent it?

Climate change

Timing a probable glacial period

dhw: Please tell me which of your agreements you now disagree with.

DAVID: Your unreasonable urgency.

dhw: Why is it unreasonably urgent to stop the damage ALREADY being done to our environment while pragmatically avoiding social and economic disaster? The unreasonable urgency is yours: you want to continue wrecking our environment NOW because of a counterintuitive prophecy of “flattening out” and another prophecy that the next Ice Age will occur in 11,000 years’ time. However, thank you continuing to agree with all the points I have raised above, so please stop disagreeing with yourself.

DAVID: I only protest your degree of urgency.

Please answer the first (now bolded) question above.

Evolution

DAVID: It is dog-eat-dog with a designed evolution creating humans.

dhw: Interesting. Instead of all evolution being geared to us and our food, you now seem to agree that your God might have created a free-for-all, but later intervened with dabbles to create humans. Please confirm.

DAVID: All one process with dog-eat-dog from the very beginning.

dhw: The free-for-all dog-eat-dog from the very beginning is the opposite of an evolution designed solely to create humans plus food. Humans as a new idea and a late dabble would neatly counter your ridicule of your God as a messy, cumbersome and inefficient designer.

DAVID: You are still confused by God using evolution to produce humans. It worked.

The confusion is entirely yours. You now have a free-for-all which is not a free-for-all! “Messy, cumbersome and inefficient.” Same again under “Earliest water”, where you have him designing and exploding countless stars in order to produce one piece of the gigantic jigsaw puzzle of life.

DAVID: God evolves all. You don't like it, but it works eventually.

I have no objection to the theory of evolution. I only object to the absurdity of an all-powerful God who is messy and inefficient. You refuse to consider alternatives.