New Miscellany: more on fine-tuning (General)

by David Turell , Wednesday, February 26, 2025, 16:53 (8 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: The fine-tuning principal DOES NOT include climate, just the physical constants that create the universe. A friendly climate occurs within that basic structure. Stop conflating the two.

dhw: Please stop making up rules as you go along. There is no “conflation”! You agree that life is impossible without a hospitable climate. Therefore a hospitable climate has to be part of the fine-tuning for life!

It is conflation. The original principal refers only to the factors creating the universe as a life-allowing universe throughout the universe. Climates that allow life are a secondary consideration, areas that are climate friendly. IF you wish to conjoin the two that is fine.

DAVID: God made the Earth hospitable for life as part of His goal.

dhw: That is just another way of saying your God “fine-tuned” the Earth for life. So what is this nonsense about life “popping up”, and “life decided to appear” wherever the climate is hospitable?

DAVID: On the Earth of course.

dhw: According to you, your God CREATED life on Earth, so according to you it did not pop up, and it does not have a mind of its own that makes decisions. In fact, your major evidence for the existence of your God is that life is too complex to have popped up on its own – so it must have been designed. And he must have “made the Earth hospitable for life” as part of his fine-tuning for life. And so far, Earth is the only place we know of that has been fine-tuned for life. It remains to be seen whether there are other places.

Good summary, thank you.

Bacteria fix nitrogen in oceans

DAVID: nature is balanced. Without cyanobacteria and nitrogen-fixing bacteria we would not exist.

dhw: And we would not exist without oceans. Physical and biochemical components combining as part of the fine-tuning of life, which you now agree is NOT to be found in the entire universe.

DAVID: You are now smutching climate and fine-tuning issues into one lump.

dhw: Of course climate is part of fine-tuning! If it was not essential, then you’re saying there could be life without suitable conditions for life! What sort of logic is that?

DAVID: The original concept of fine-tuning was limited to 20+ physical factors that construct this universe. Climate is a local issue within the universe.

dhw: I don’t care what “original concept” you are referring to! The moment you talk of “fine-tuning for life”, you are talking of all the conditions that are necessary for life. Yes, climate is a local “issue” within the universe, and so is “life”. They are only to be found locally, and at present the only location is our planet, and you have made it perfectly clear that the entire universe is NOT fine-tuned for life, since life can only occur where there are hospitable conditions.

I've accepted your new definition conflation of fine tuning understanding the two very different components, physical factors constructing this universe and local friendly climates.

Bird brains

DAVID: Cells are not intelligent enough to design a new type of organism.

dhw: And you still dodge the implications and complications of your theory compared to Shapiro’s. Your dodging is becoming ever more blatant. […]

dhw: […] We are now into theodicy and your efforts to ignore evil on the grounds of “proportionality”. Would you say that the inefficiency of your God’s use of evolution to fulfil his one and only goal, the deaths of millions of people through the failure of his instructions, and the suffering caused by all forms of evil knowingly created by your God are commensurate with the conventional view of your God as being all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful?

DAVID: Usual answer, God's good works far outweigh the bad side effects.

dhw: I know “proportionality” is your usual answer. That is what I have objected to, ending with a straightforward question, which as usual you simply dodge. An all-knowing God would have known the “bad side effects” which would result in millions of deaths from diseases and natural disasters, and suffering on a vast scale from the evil he knowingly allowed us humans to perpetrate. NB: This is not a complaint but simply a discussion concerning the possible nature of your God as the supposedly omniscient, supposedly omnipotent, supposedly all-good first cause of all that exists.

What you have ignored is the good God does far outweighs the bad side effects.