New Miscellany: more on fine-tuning (General)

by David Turell , Sunday, February 23, 2025, 18:18 (11 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Unfortunately for you, I do read what you say, and you say three separate things which, true to form, are self-contradictory.

1) The universe is as it is because of certain factors, and if the universe did not exist as it is, life would not be possible. There is no disagreement. But fine tuning for life must include whatever factors change inanimate matter into living matter!

The 20+ physical factors presented in this universe are not biochemical in any way. We do not know enough about the biochemistry of the origin of life to know if physical fine-tuning is involved. Stop lumping the biochemistry of life with the physical attributes of this universe that allow life. The physical structure of this life allowing universe is a separate issue from the biochemical steps that start life.

dhw: 2)“The entire universe is fine-tuned for life to appear.” Contrast that with: “Life can pop up anywhere with a hospitable climate.” We know for a fact that even large parts of our own galaxy do not have a hospitable climate, and so you are quite rightly limiting the possibility to particular spots in the universe that are “fine-tuned for life to appear”, as opposed to the entire universe. And even if a spot did have a hospitable climate, that still wouldn’t mean life existed there, because a hospitable climate is not the only factor that determines whether inanimate matter becomes animate. We can only say a place is/was fine-tuned for life if we know there is/was life in that place!

Still confused. The physical makeup of this universe allows life wherever there is a hospitable climate. The origin of life is a separate biochemical issue.

dhw: 3) You have spent years and written books pointing out the uniqueness of our planet, and you insist that your God’s only purpose for creating the universe was to design us and our food. How does this equate with life “popping up” wherever there is a hospitable climate?

Of course God would put life in hospitable places.

dhw: See square brackets for my answers to your next statement:

dhw: How inanimate matter can be “fine-tuned” to become animate remains a mystery. That’s what we mean by the “origin of life”. It is the ultimate piece of fine-tuning, and the only fine-tuned “spot” we know of in the entire universe is Planet Earth.

DAVID: Nonsense! Origin of life is a separate package which can only appear in a specific fine-tuned universe waiting for it.

dhw: Back to 2). You say “the entire universe is fine-tuned for life to appear.” But life can only appear where the climate is "hospitable for life". Are conditions throughout the entire universe hospitable for life? Please answer.

Anywhere the climate is hospitable in this universe life can appear. Only on Earth, so far.

Bird brains

QUOTES: “The genetic tools they use to establish their cellular identity vary from species to species, each exhibiting new and unique cell types.”
“Birds have developed sophisticated neural circuits through their own mechanisms, without following the same path as mammals.”

hw: You explained this as being due to a 3.8-billion-year-old programme of instructions; we both reject Darwin’s random mutations, and I prefer Sheldrake’s theory of cellular intelligence.

Sheldrake's theory?
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dhw: You then repeated your mantra:

DAVID: Cells are not intelligent enough to design a new type of organism.

dhw: So your God provided the first cells with programmes for every species, every strategy, every response to every new threat/opportunity, to be passed on through billions of years even into our present and future. I get it. I just don’t believe it.

DAVID: Immunity proves it. One system makes antibodies for everything!
And:
DAVID: One simple immune system makes antibodies for every enemy. Take a piece of the invader, add a killer portion to it and an antibody appears.

dhw: You have managed to change the subject from bird brains (see above) to the immune system, and you have dodged the fact that your theory also embraces every species, strategy, lifestyle, response to new threats/opportunities etc. I have challenged even this example, since intelligent communication between cells is still essential, and clearly your all-knowing God’s automatic system sometimes breaks down when new threats proceed to kill millions of people – e,g, ‘flu, malaria, AIDS, Covid – which means viruses can outsmart your God instead of outsmarting our cells. But your example is a mere dot in the vast collection of instructions your God apparently implanted in those first cells. If you want simplicity, Shapiro’s theory wins by a vast distance!

That the antibodies we produce are sometimes inadequate does not answer the point of the simplicity of the system which is adequate 99.9% of the time.