New Miscellany (General)

by dhw, Sunday, February 02, 2025, 12:38 (32 days ago) @ David Turell

First life

DAVID: The striking point is how quickly life appeared after the Earth formed. Strongly supports the concept of a designer at work. (dhw's bold)

DAVID: We are discussing a time frame for first life. The article expresses surprise it is so small, representing an underlying belief the arrival of life should have taken longer.

dhw: I know what you and the article’s author express, and I’m pointing out to you that you have absolutely no idea how long life normally takes to appear, and so it is totally pointless for him and you to tell us that 70,000,000 years (or 40,000,000 years) is a surprisingly short time!

DAVID: It comes from the above belief. You want exactitude but it doesn't exist.

Your belief that 70,000,000 years is a surprisingly short time and is evidence for God’s design comes from your belief that 70,000,000 years is a surprisingly short time and is evidence for God’s design. I understand! My point is that you have no criteria for your belief, which you and the author worded as if it were a statement of fact.

T-cells help gut immunity

dhw: Our subject was your belief that cells automatically follow your God’s 3.8-billion-year old instructions […]If he deliberately gave organisms autonomy, their extinction would be due to THEIR inefficiency, and not his.

DAVID: God gave all organisms a degree of adaptability to use. That is what fails. No issue of inefficiency.

dhw: What do you mean by a “degree of adaptability” if it’s not a degree of intelligence to organize themselves and make decisions independently of his instructions?

DAVID: At the cellular level the instructions are followed.

All physical changes must be at the cellular level, or have you not realized that you are made of cells?

T-cells and immunity

QUOTE: "'We discovered that ID3+ T cell formation could be promoted by specific inflammatory cues, potentially offering new strategies to boost the number of immune cells that excel at fighting cancer in patients..."

DAVID: a necessary fighter in the immune system, allowing for a long term resistance. It demonstrates 'purpose' as do all evolutionary processes like it. It supports a designer theory.

New strategies are essential whenever conditions change, and it supports the theory that cells have the intelligence to design them, the purpose being to enhance their chances of survival. Sadly, they are not always successful – e.g. millions of people are still dying from cancer - which means your God’s 3.8-billion-years-old instructions have failed. Another example of the inefficiency of your God.

NEW EXTREMOPHILES

DAVID: All ecosystems evolve along with human evolving. You have no point.

dhw: For 3.X thousand million years, ecosystems came and went, and there were no humans on the scene! So how can they have “evolved with human evolving”? You’re back where you started, with your God’s nonsensical method of fulfilling the only purpose you allow him to have: producing us and our food.[/i]

DAVID: Yes, you and I are nonsensical results. Really?

The nonsense is bolded above, and your explanation is your God’s inefficiency.

Theistic evolution vs. Darwinism: design evidence

DAVID: [Darwin] believed chance mutations drove evolution, seasoned by natural selection. And that mess made our brain! No way!

dhw: I agree. I find Shapiro’s theory of design by intelligent cells far more convincing. Same theory of evolution, but different interpretation of how it works.

DAVID: Cells with minds equal to God. A totally improbable interpretation.

dhw: As humans are proving day by day, designers can design mechanisms capable of extraordinary feats. Why do you think your all-powerful, all-knowing God was incapable of designing minds clever enough to do their own designing? I can also hear the atheists cry: "How come clever cells need a designer, but a designer clever enough to design such cells does not need a designer?"

DAVID: Back to a first cause discussion?

Precisely. And each possible first cause (God versus a mindless mass of ever changing matter and energy) raises unanswerable questions. Now please tell us why you think your all-powerful God was incapable of designing cells clever enough to do their own designing.

DAVID: An answer:
https://www.livescience.com/chemistry/asteroid-bennu-contains-the-seeds-of-life-osiris-...

DAVID: A proper designer would have needed seeds-of-life in place before designing life itself.

dhw: The seeds of life must have been present before they combined to make life, whether it was designed or not. What are you answering?

DAVID: God made this universe with all elements needed for life.

That is not an answer but is simply a reiteration of your belief. See above for the alternative first causes.

Return to David's theory of evolution III

DAVID: The article's point was only about the end of evolution, nothing more. Stop beating on my theory when it isn't present.

dhw: So why did you put it under the heading “Return to David’s Theory of Evolution III”?

DAVID: Under a discussion of evolution it fits.

OK. You prophesy that there will be no more evolution. Let's meet up in ten thousand years' time to see if you're right.