New Miscellany Parts 1 &:2: evolution, brain, zombies etc. (General)

by dhw, Thursday, April 24, 2025, 09:27 (2 days ago) @ David Turell

Evolution

dhw: Nobody knows how ANY complex organ/organism developed out of the initial single cells, but the theory that cells – as exemplified by bacteria – have the perhaps God-given intelligence to design their own changes dispenses with chance, and would allow you to stop ridiculing your God for his inefficiency, since he would have wanted the vast variety as opposed to his having wanted only 0.1% of what he produced. Stop dodging!

DAVID: In the bolded, are you saying the vast variety on Earth isn't vast enough!

No! I’m saying that if he exists, your God would have wanted the vast variety of life forms, extant and extinct, produced by the autonomous intelligence of cells, as proposed by Sheldrake. This is in stark contrast to your own theory of your God’s inefficiency, as bolded below.

DAVID: Evolution took millions of years supported by the groups that went extinct. They should be recognized, not discarded.

dhw: Yes indeed, the process of evolution produced every species, extant and extinct, and it is totally absurd to insist that your inefficient version of God designed them all but had to “discard” or cull them because they did not fit the purpose you impose on him. At last you are beginning to realize that if he exists, he may have wanted what he created. […]

DAVID: Of course He wanted what He created.

So once and for all, please stop telling us that he inefficiently designed and had to cull 99.9 out of 100 species which had no connection with what he wanted. And please don’t repeat your absurd claim that we are all the descendants of the extinct 99.9% that had no descendants living today.

A start of multicellularity

DAVID: As organs each cell type has its prescribed duties with the ability to make minor variations.

dhw: As per Shapiro, the duties are “prescribed” by the decision-making members of the cell communities […] For some reason, you insist that any changes can only be minor, and your God must step in whenever there is the need or opportunity for a major change. […] And for good measure, 99.9% of these major changes were irrelevant to his one and only purpose.

DAVID: The 'some reason' is I think God is a designer in charge.

Yet again: You think your God only wanted to create us plus food, and therefore specially designed and culled 99.9 out of 100 species that had nothing to do with us and our food. You have no idea why, you acknowledge that it makes him into an inefficient designer, but that’s OK because it puts him in charge.

The human brain
DAVID: […] Our use of the miraculous brain created what we are today.

dhw: That’s a relief. You are no longer telling us that 315,000 years ago your God provided us with new cells which were not used until thousands of years later, for the future events he’d seen in his crystal ball. Instead, our autonomous intelligence uses the original cells as and when required.

DAVID: Yes, the new extra neurons were used from the beginning. An end I hope

So do I. I’ll record your agreement for the next time you reopen the discussion.

Zombification

dhw: Do you believe your God preprogrammed this strategy 3.8 billion years ago, or suddenly decided that zombification would be a great help to us humans (his sole purpose) and popped in to give zombification courses to all his potential parasites.? Please answer.

DAVID: Designed parts of a necessary ecosystem.

Once again, necessary for what? Once again: Do you believe he preprogrammed or dabbled zombification because we couldn’t exist/survive without it?

Possible alien life

DAVID: Yes, the Earth is fine-tuned for life, but as the universe is life-friendly any life- welcoming area within it can have life.

dhw: All you’re saying is that any area that is fine-tuned for life can have life. That does not mean the whole universe is fine-tuned for life.

DAVID: A nuanced difference: potentially any object can modify itself like Earth did to add life.

I didn’t know you believed in D-I-Y fine-tuning! There are no such “nuances”. Your original statement was that the entire universe is fine-tuned for life. We know that it isn’t, because we know that there are sections of the universe which are neither environmentally nor biologically fine-tuned for life. Why are you dragging this out?

Clever corvids

dhw: We always think of intelligence in terms of what matters to us, but many humans simply cannot conceive of the possibility that every living form, all the way down to single cells, must have some form of intelligence to enable it to survive.

DAVID: Single cells follow intelligent instructions.

You agree that single-celled bacteria have their own autonomous intelligence. There is no reason to suppose that other cells are automatons, or that intelligent cells lose their intelligence when they form communities. I don’t ask you to believe Shapiro’s theory but simply to open your mind to the possibility that it's true, and to recognize that it dispenses with chance as well with your need to ridicule your God’s inefficiency.