Immunity system complexity (Introduction)

by dhw, Sunday, June 21, 2020, 10:01 (1616 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Every disease in life’s history was once a novelty! [And so 1) the immune system has had to come up with new answers every time, thus building its library of responses. […] If “all diseases can be handled by several immune systems”, how come people are still dying of cancer, flu, malaria, AIDS….? (2) Once again, I suggest the immune system does NOT contain instructions on how to counter all diseases (“anything that comes along can be dealt with by present limited responses”) but accumulates its own instructions in an ongoing learning process.

dhw: You said my first bold was correct – see top of this post – and now you say it is not correct! If – a big but highly desirable “if” – the immune system were to find a means of killing the coronavirus, it would have added one set of instructions to those that it has already filed away in its library. Every new answer becomes part of the library which the immune system has built up with every new answer to every new problem, as you agreed first time round. And the instructions or books in the library do not cover “all and every infection”, as you have proved with your list.

DAVID: The first bold is correct with the word you used 'answers'. Immune cells always follow on board instructions to create a library of answers which are remembered as antibodies or direct engulfing and digesting.

Thank you. I don’t know why you now try to muddy the waters with your “on board instructions”. Each new disease is a new question, and the answers (antibodies) don’t come into existence until the new disease has struck. The answers will then form instructions on how to tackle the disease, and these are remembered. What other “instructions” are you referring to?

DAVID: In regard to corona, survivors have high level of antibodies and their serum has been used successfully in treatment. The second bold applies only to the partially successful responses I have listed. The newborn baby come fully prepared for a lifetime fight. Colostrum is an additional advantage for those who are nursed, but unnursed babies do just as well. In AIDS the human immune system itself is destroyed by the virus. Only the new drugs help. In malaria, I'll remind you, you survived by using your immune system plus medication. But we still need a vaccine.

This jumble of observations simply proves that the responses are NOT all there, i.e. the library does NOT “cover all and every infection”, and that is why outside intervention is necessary in the form of drugs.

QUOTE (under “herd immunity): "From looking at the circulation of measles within island communities, we know it can’t survive for long in places with fewer than about half a million people. This is because it causes lifelong immunity, so once everyone has had it, there are no more hosts to keep it going. Only in larger communities would there be enough new, and therefore susceptible, babies being born for the virus to survive."

Confirmation that you are not naturally immune to a disease until you have had it – i.e. the library is an on-going accumulation of volumes/answers/instructions.

DAVID (under HIV:) Avoiding B an T cells and using plasma cells, another line of defense, is a clever approach. A constant stream of antibodies must be produced to cure HIV. So far, none.

Confirmation that the immune system’s library does not “cover all and every infection”.