Immunity system complexity: how T cells are triggered (Introduction)

by David Turell , Monday, April 08, 2019, 15:06 (1842 days ago) @ dhw

"Abstract
Mutations drive evolution and were assumed to occur by chance: constantly, gradually, roughly uniformly in genomes, and without regard to environmental inputs, but this view is being revised by discoveries of molecular mechanisms of mutation in bacteria, now translated across the tree of life. These mechanisms reveal a picture of highly regulated mutagenesis, up-regulated temporally by stress responses and activated when cells/organisms are maladapted to their environments—when stressed—potentially accelerating adaptation. Mutation is also nonrandom in genomic space, with multiple simultaneous mutations falling in local clusters, which may allow concerted evolution—the multiple changes needed to adapt protein functions and protein machines encoded by linked genes. Molecular mechanisms of stress-inducible mutation change ideas about evolution […]

dhw: This whole paragraph shows that cell communities respond to environmental conditions, and although it focuses only on adaptation, the implication quite clearly is that these non-random mechanisms may also be responsible for the major changes that result in evolution. The question for us is what regulates the mechanisms. You claim it is a divine 3.8-billion-year-old computer programme. I propose cellular intelligence. The “new findings” do not support or reject either hypothesis.

DAVID: Where are cell communities in the paragraph? Bacteria are individuals in colonies , and are programmed to dictate necessary mutations, as if with purpose..

dhw: A colony is a community, and the above specifies that the process is “translated across the tree of life” when all “cells/organisms are maladapted to their environments”. I don’t know why you refuse to recognize that organisms consist of cell communities. It is your belief that they are programmed, whereas many scientists believe they work things out for themselves.

Just because bacteria live together, doesn't mean they cooperate. However there are special forms of amoeba that show great cooperation. It is a step up in evolution.

DAVID: We're back to the same argument about the possible presence of purpose and design.

dhw: Of course there is purpose and design: in my hypothesis, the purpose is to adapt to or exploit new conditions in order to improve chances of survival, and the design is done by the cells/cell communities themselves with their possibly God-given intelligence. The question of your God’s purpose in setting it all up continues to be debated under “Big brain evolution”.

I can accept God-given instructions, as usual.

DAVID: Stress-induced mutation certainly points to underlying automatic mutational programs to create necessary responses.[…]. Nothing chance about these mutation mechanisms.

dhw: […] The theory of cellular intelligence is a counter to the chance theory. Intelligent action is not a matter of chance. You seem to think that by simply inserting the word “automatic” you disprove the theory that cells are intelligent. You don’t. Nor does the attack on chance go anywhere near supporting the theory that your God provided the very first cells with programmes for every single undabbled action in the history of life.

DAVID: The issue is how did bacteria develop the ability to self-mutate? The two possibilities are still chance or design. You've agreed to NO CHANCE, and imply self-improved bacteria with no idea how cells developed their own intelligence. Intelligence come with MIND or from MIND. Your hypothesis of magical cell intelligence, is just that, magical. So we are matched: supernatural God or supernatural cells. You know my unchanging choice.

dhw: The issue in this post is whether bacteria do their own designing using their (possibly God-given) intelligence, or your God provided the first cells with programmes to be passed on for every single mutation throughout the history of life. I really don’t know how often I have to repeat that my hypothesis of cellular intelligence leaves open the question of origin, but I usually append “possibly God-given”. Please stop changing the subject and setting up straw men!

Not a straw man. You can postulate cell intelligence, but can't tell me where it came from. Intelligence requires Thinking and a mind.