Concepts of God: God does not exist in time (The nature of a \'Creator\')

by dhw, Tuesday, March 02, 2021, 12:49 (1361 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I asked you for your definition of time. If you accept my definition, do you think your God is ignorant of the fact that his work DEPENDS on there being a before, a now, and an after, although according to you it was he who created a beginning – the universe – and a sequence of befores, nows and afters from that beginning to our present? You even have him programming events and acting in anticipation of future events! What do you mean by “timelessly eternal”? The only possible meaning of “timeless” in this context is eternal, so yes indeed, an eternal God is eternal. But an eternal God who is eternal still “exists in time”, unless of course he is now dead, in which case he is not eternal. Without a definition of time as something that negates sequences of cause and effect, of before, now and after, and of past, present and future, this argument is pointless.

DAVID: All you have done is discuss the human concept of time and tried to apply that to God. God is unchanging all through eternity, and not being different ever He is timeless.

Why do you refuse to define time and timeless? And unchanging in what way? For instance, do you think he is incapable of learning? You believe he is interested in us, so does that mean he watches us but his mind remains a total blank?

DAVID: What you have described are things that God does for us or for evolution in our time. Obviously God recognizes the passage of our time as He performs activity in that time.

And there you have the nub of the matter. We have no idea what your God got up to before the Big Bang (if it happened), but he did not “recognize” the passage of our time – according to you he created it! So it's HIS time. And he used it. And if he is still alive, he exists in it.

DAVID: What you do not seem to understand is the separation. Timeless God can enter our time and remain timeless as He manipulates within our time. It is not pointless trying to make you understand Feser's concepts.

Again, what do you mean by “timeless”? I have no problem accepting the idea that he is eternal, but what do you mean by he “entered our time”, when you believe that he himself began the sequences of cause and effect, past, present and future, evolution etc. If by “timeless” you mean that he has always been one vast blob of pure energy, that’s fine with me, but it doesn’t mean that his work does (did) not depend on cause and effect, before and after. And if by timeless you simply mean “eternal”, then all you are saying is that your eternal God has always been there in HIS past and will always be there in HIS future. This whole discussion is meaningless unless you define your terms! Why are you so reluctant to do so? And what exactly is the point that you are trying to make?