Concepts of God (The nature of a \'Creator\')

by BBella @, Saturday, April 23, 2016, 20:54 (818 days ago) @ dhw

Dhw:I started out from my existence as a human being, which would have to mean a mixture of material and immaterial. The reincarnation aspect of my “explanation” allows for me to have existed in immaterial form before my birth as the present me. But how far back does the pre-“me” go? According to current scientific calculations, at most about 3.8 billion years. My “lives” could not have begun before life began!

BBELLA: Keeping in mind the challenge, you would be right. Your material lives could not have begun before material life began - that's logic. But your immaterial life could have preceded your material life by eternity...or longer lol. Meaning, your immaterial existence could be eternal (think how boring that would be!).

Hmmm….Keeping in mind the challenge (supposing all psychic experiences were real), I was focusing on reincarnation, which is particularly difficult to bring in under the explanatory umbrella because it is impossible without a material self. That's OK so long as there is material life, but has anyone ever had a psychic experience in which they had an identity of any kind BEFORE material life began?

Ah, I see. I missed that. I read "how far does the pre-me go?" and took it from there and missed the limitations of under the reincarnation umbrella.

Dhw: So there I am, stuck with the usual chicken and egg dilemma - in this case, which came first: the bacterium me or the intelligence me? (A question specially for you, David! ";-)" ) Could the one have come into existence without the other?

BBELLA: I always assume intelligence existed first (maybe not). As an intelligent being, I do not necessarily think I would choose to become a bacterium (unless I just wanted to experience that level of conscious(?) existence - which, who knows, at that point in eternity, bacterium existence might sound very exciting - like a night on the town with a hangover ending - lol- something different anyway). That thought aside, I would think bacterium and all material life may have had to be incubated in order to evolve to a state that we intelligent, immaterial beings would want to choose to inhabit it. Thinking of eternity, what's another 3.8 billion years anyway?

I wasn't actually thinking of choosing to become a bacterium, but of the limits of my explanation for all “real” psychic experiences. I've never actually heard of anyone recalling his/her life as a bacterium.

Ah...ok, again, missed the umbrella thing.

Dhw: You are right, though, my “explanation” of an afterlife and reincarnation demands that ultimately matter becomes energy, which can go on existing independently of matter. That does not mean that life, identities and consciousness existed before matter. What happened before the universe began remains as unknown as what will happen after the universe ends, but that was not part of BBella's challenge!

BBELLA: Bringing together the two constructs does make perfect sense (within this challenge): an ENDLESS eternal existence and a timed existence within material life that always has an ending. Any cracks come to mind we can fill while we are at it?

“Endless”, looking forward. My attitude is hardening. The challenge could only relate to life after the beginning of life on Earth, unless you can refer me to psychic experiences of lives before then.

I personally have read of supernatural experiences of lives as other beings (animal, humanoid, alienlike, etc) on earth and in other places, dimensions, etc as well as accounts of NDE that illuminated these ideas. But all those experiences fit neatly under your (my?) original explanation. None that I remember were accounts given in particular before earth time.

Phew! As for cracks…well, when Planet Earth dies, reincarnation may have to come to an end, which could be a problem for our eastern friends if they haven't yet reached closure of the recycling process.

Unless...planet earth will not die until all purposes for it's existence have been exhausted.

But maybe we'll have found another habitable planet by then. And when the universe dies…? Well, I'm not going to lose any sleep over that particular crack.

If we are eternal, immaterial beings in the first place - the comings and goings of our universe may be nothing more than just another curtain closing at the end of a great play.

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