Consciousness: Dennett says it is an illusion (General)

by David Turell , Saturday, October 19, 2019, 19:10 (1860 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Of course there is a vast range of necessities if humans are to survive! But you can’t find a logical explanation for the vast range of galaxies and of non-human life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders that have no conceivable connection to the special design of humans which, according to you, was your God’s sole purpose right from the start. Hence your cry: “Haven’t you realized by now, I have no idea why God chose to evolve humans over time” – i.e. why he decided to spend 3.X billion years designing anything but what he wanted to design.

DAVID: So you deny the history that a universe appeared and then had to evolve into current form, fine-tuned for life, the Earth evolved and finally humans appeared? We know that happened and if God is in charge, He did it that way. Like all humans you love to guess about God while studying His works. The works tell the story, but not His reasons, and He is not talking.

dhw: Where have you seen this denial? Certainly not in any of my posts! You are presenting the history which is undeniable! But as usual you leave out your own guess about God, which is that he did all this with the sole purpose of creating humans, but delayed implementing his one and only purpose and therefore “had to” specially design millions of non-human life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders in order to “cover the time” he had decided to take before doing the only thing he wanted to do! And you have no idea why he would have adopted this procedure.

Haven't you realized by now I have no intent to puzzle out Gods reasons for the methods He used. The works show what God did, and we are so unusual compared to all other creatures we have to be a prime purpose, as per Adler.

dhw: Egnor says “only something physical can evolve. Natural selection can only select attributes that have physical manifestations.” Do you believe, for instance, that language cannot evolve? And do you believe that ape consciousness, which is manifestly more complex than, say, that of earthworms or houseflies, did not evolve from earlier conscious states?

DAVID: You want an immaterial consciousness to evolve. You have solved the hard problem, like no one else has been able to do. Awareness morphed into true consciousness over time.

dhw: The hard problem is the origin and source of consciousness, and how it all works. I have specifically said we do not know. I have no idea what you mean by “awareness morphed into true consciousness”. Awareness IS consciousness. But the course of evolution and the theory of common descent suggest that once consciousness existed, it evolved from comparatively simple beginnings to current complexities. That is the sense in which it evolved. Why don’t you answer the question I have bolded above?

I have answered it. Brains involved enough complexity to receive consciousness, of which awareness is a very small portion compared to the ideation which full human consciousness allows, present in no other organism .

DAVID: Language is not the same and offers no comparison. Language is sound with meaning and requires an awareness of what one hears and grunts, based on an evolved complex brain. It cones from us learning how to use our God-given brain.

dhw: Egnor says categorically that “only something physical can evolve”. I have used language as one example of something immaterial that evolves. You have forgotten the starting point of this discussion. Once more, please answer the bolded question above.

I've answered with my theory. The idea carried by language are immaterial . I view language with its sounds and symbols as material productions of our anatomy. What sounds mean is the immaterial part. Language is a result of anatomic changes and brain complexity, all material. We were given those gifts and had to learn how to use them.