Consciousness: hard problem not solvable? (General)

by David Turell , Tuesday, September 17, 2019, 14:56 (1892 days ago) @ dhw

QUOTE: "If our experience of action doesn’t really affect what we do in the moment, then what is it for? Why have it? Contrary to what many people believe, I think agency is only relevant to what happens after we act – when we try to justify and explain ourselves to each other." (DAVID’S bold)

DAVID’s comment: Libet did not interpret correctly. The bold considers agency a feeling after we act. That sounds correct to me.

dhw: Perhaps you understand all this better than I do. “Feeling of agency” presumably means the feeling that we are the “agents” responsible for our actions. If not, what exactly does it mean?

DAVID: That is his meaning as I read it.

dhw: I’m glad we agree.

dhw: Once again, we are confronted with the mystery of consciousness. Is he saying that when we need to make a decision, we do not consciously weigh up the pros and cons offered by the information at our disposal?

DAVID: Again I read it as acknowledging that we do weight pros and cons before choosing.

dhw: But he says “agency” – the feeling that we are the agents responsible for our actions – only begins AFTER our actions!

DAVID: That is our 'feeling' after our acts, but doesn't negate that we carefully considered and made real choices.

dhw: If the feeling that we are the agents responsible for our actions is only relevant AFTER we act, how does that come to mean that it is relevant BEFORE we act?

I feel I am fully in charge beforehand while deliberating as well as afterward.

DAVID: You have totally misinterpreted his meaning. Our feeling of full control (free will) does appear after we decided what to think or do. That is my feeling of my decisions.

dhw: I’m not disputing that we feel responsible afterwards. I’m disputing that we do not feel responsible before our actions, when we are in the process of making our decision. (I’d better repeat that I am disputing his argument, but I am not defending or attacking the concept of free will.) I don’t know why you are supporting an argument with which you profoundly disagree, or why you think that “only after” includes “before”!

Explained above. The no-free-will folks believe the brain, own its own, influences our thoughts. I feel I run my brain, even though it is a wet-computer which helps us see, feel our reality in an indirect way.