Consciousness: not explained by panpsychism (General)

by David Turell , Sunday, November 04, 2018, 18:46 (2209 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I fully understand the nature of agnosticism. Proof is required, but as courses in logic tell us, logic can lead to conclusions which are reasonable.

dhw: Proof is impossible. Logic can lead to conclusions which individuals consider to be reasonable. This individual finds BOTH explanations to be sufficiently reasonable/unreasonable to make it impossible to believe/disbelieve either of them.

DAVID: First, research shows us just how very complex life's processes are. You have admitted they show design. Second, in human experience, complex design requires advanced thinking, which can only come from a working mind that can foresee the needs of the future the design is aimed at.

dhw: You simply refuse to recognize that life and speciation are unique phenomena which nobody can explain. Yet again: I do not accept that human birth canals, whales’ fins, spiders’ webs, weaverbirds’ nests, monarch butterflies’ migration all had to be planned before they were needed in anticipation of conditions that did not exist. I find it far more logical that they all resulted from the needs or opportunities created by changing conditions.

Again, an example of your magical thinking. Needs and opportunities don't design, when design is required.

dhw: And so, yet again, instead of your proposal that they were all preprogrammed 3.8 billion years ago or personally dabbled by your God (although apparently his purpose was to produce the body and brain of Homo sapiens), I propose that they were endowed right from the start - possibly by your God - with the intelligence to organize their own responses to those changing conditions. But of course, yet again: this remains a hypothesis because “life and speciation are unique phenomena which nobody can explain”. I believe I may have said all this before.

You sure have said it before, scurrying back to an God-given inventive mechanism, which means God is in change of evolution, which is always my point

DAVID: Thirdly, the formless energy we find is not conscious, nor are aware of any way it can create its own consciousness. Therefore a pre-existing designing mind is required. Further logic not necessary.

dhw: Consciousness has to be designed, the formless energy we find is not conscious, and therefore there must be a form of formless energy that we are not aware of whose consciousness doesn't have to be designed but simply is. No, I’m afraid I do not find that logical. Sorry.

That is why you are agnostic. Your logic doesn't carry as far as mine.