Consciousness: Dennett says it is an illusion (General)

by dhw, Wednesday, October 16, 2019, 10:01 (1864 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: My point agrees with you that we and animals are all conscious, but humans separately have the phenomenon of consciousness, which is unexplained, and keep trying to smudge the separateness.

dhw: There is no smudging except when you pretend that there is a difference between being conscious and having consciousness! All levels of consciousness are unexplained, and humans have the same levels as their fellow animals, plus additional levels of self-awareness, conceptualization etc. which make them special. Once more, please stop messing about with language.

DAVID: Adler and I consider the additional form of consciousness humans have as something very special. You have agreed. That is all i want.

I have never disagreed, and I accept the logic of the argument that our consciousness, like every other complexity in life’s designs, can be viewed as evidence for the existence of God. You have acknowledged that the rest of your theory requires the abandonment of human reason, and I am delighted to see that in this post you have not once tried to distinguish between being conscious and having consciousness. Thank you. That is all I want.

dhw: All animals are conscious/have consciousness, and all animals have learned how to use it, but humans have additional attributes such as self-awareness and conceptualization which create a vast difference between us and them. Meanwhile, you have not said whether, in opposition to Egnor, you agree that once consciousness existed, it evolved from simple beginnings to current complexities.
Our issue will not be settled until you stop playing word games.

DAVID: Not word games but noting the philosophic import of our special consciousness.

Already acknowledged a thousand times. Now would you please tell us whether you agree with me (in opposition to Egnor) that once consciousness existed, it evolved from simple beginnings to current complexities.

DAVID: Mucus represents the purpose of invention in evolution. This is another aspect of how immunity is designed to protect us. We share this with all animals, but not our special form of consciousness.

dhw: I agree with your first two statements. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that no matter how such inventions originated – through your God’s individual dabbles or 3.8-billion-year-old programmes, or through the possibly God-given intelligence of cells, they are the product of purposeful design. As for consciousness, as above, we share many aspects of it with our fellow animals, but we also have special forms of it (e.g. self-awareness, conceptualization) which they do not have.

DAVID: You and I really agree. But you don't accept the theological importance I place on human consciousness as I do to reach my acceptance of God.

As above, I have always agreed not only to the importance of human consciousness but also to the complexity of all organisms as evidence for your God’s existence (your “acceptance”). They are not, however, evidence for all the incongruities of your theory which I keep repeating because you keep leaving them out (summarized yet again under “David’s theory of evolution”).