Theodicy (Introduction)

by David Turell , Sunday, November 29, 2020, 15:36 (1453 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I never try to explain why He chose to evolve us.

dhw: That is not what I ask you to explain. I ask you why, if we were his goal, he directly designed millions of extinct life forms and their food supplies that had no connection with us. Please stop dodging!

Same illogical complaint. You are simply describing God's evolution and then claiming He shouldn't have done it in the way He chose to do it.

DAVID: History of His creations do not suggest experimentation: a universe based on quantum mechanics, a perfect galaxy with a perfect Earth to protect the life He created, and the complex designs of cells tell us of a superb designer who doesn't need experimentation.

dhw: Millions of galaxies coming and going, millions of life forms etc. coming and going, all for the sake of one species and its food supply...fits in perfectly with experimentation. In any case, your new thought is that there might be things he could NOT do – in particular, “directly create us”. So a possible limitation would be his not knowing how to create patterns of thought and emotions similar to his own – as you so aptly put it. Hence experimentation. Please tell us what other limitations you can think of that would prevent him from directly creating us, and please give me a logical reason why experimentation as I have presented it is not a possibility.

I noted the possibility that There might be limitations in methods of creation that limited God as He evolved life from bacteria. I do consider all possibilities. You can't seize upon this opinion as any form of basic fact to allow your humanizing forms of thoughts about God. I see no evidence of experimentation. I see a determined God doing what He wishes.

dhw: Of course your bolded statements are perfectly feasible humanizations. And I shan’t be able to follow your logic until you can explain how millions of life forms unconnected with humans could have been part of the goal of designing humans.

Your usual fallback argument which has no basis.

dhw: You are sure he is interested in his creations (then it can’t be zero interest). So please explain why it is illogical to propose that he might have created his creations in order to have something to be interested in.

DAVID: You have given him a human purpose He does not need, in my view.

dhw: Your purposeful God must have a purpose. I have proposed a purpose based on your own certainty that he watches us with interest. You have not offered us a logical flaw, but only your extraordinary refusal to agree with yourself that your God “very well could think like us” and probably has thought patterns and emotions like ours.

Same repeat of old comments, when my position is God uses logic as we do, and we can know no more about His reasons for His actions.

DAVID: The only purpose I can be sure of is He desire to produce humans at some point in His creations. […]

dhw: Well, at least we now have a more flexible approach to evolution, since apparently you are no longer sure that he directly designed every life form etc. as part of the goal of designing humans. That opens the door to other theories […]

Of course God directly designed all advances in evolution. That is how designed evolution can give the appearance of a natural process.

DAVID: The bold is a total phantasy you have invented. I have explained theodicy as our lack of discovery of God's purposes, at which we continue our research.

dhw: If the only purpose you can be sure of is His desire to “produce humans at some point”, then (for very good reasons) you are not sure that his purpose in designing all the life forms unconnected with humans was to design humans! Your explanation of God’s creation of evil (he deliberately designed the bad bugs) is that we don’t yet know why he did it. I’m sorry, but I can’t regard “I don’t know” as an explanation, let alone as a valid justification for rejecting theories which you yourself accept as being logical.

Your theories about God are logical if you begin from a position of describing God as very human. I never do.