Theodicy (Introduction)

by dhw, Thursday, October 29, 2020, 09:00 (1487 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Your belief that every life form was “part of THE goal of evolving [= directly designing] humans” is not a straw man. If there are other purposes, please tell us what you think they are.

DAVID: Whatever God created shows his purposes. We study His works to understand his purposes.

dhw: So apart from the purpose of directly designing H. sapiens, what purposes have you gleaned from his works, and how do they fit in with your claim that every extinct life form was “part of the goal of evolving [= directly designing] humans” although “extinct life plays no role in current time”?

DAVID: Again, illogically splitting time continuums. We are the progeny of past designs that continued to develop complexity of biochemical living designs.

Time is a continuum. As you have acknowledged elsewhere, speciation resulted in countless branches, 99% of which had no direct connection to humans or even to their food supply. Example: there is no continuum from brontosaurus to H. sapiens.

dhw: If you are now saying that all of them were his purposes, and they were NOT just “part of THE goal…etc”, and if we remember the fact that you are sure he is interested in his creations, then for the life of me I cannot see why you object to the proposal that he created them all in order to have something interesting to watch. i.e. they were NOT just stepping stones to humans.

DAVID: Not my God who purposely creates what He wishes and has purposeful goals. Not humanizing goals.

My proposal also has your God purposely creating what he wishes and having purposeful goals. Please stop harping on about “humanizing”. Why have you ignored my latest response to it?
[…] if you accept that your God has thought patterns similar to ours, it is absurd to reject a theory on the grounds that it entails thought patterns similar to ours. For instance, you are sure that he is interested in his creations. It would be absurd for me to say to you: you are sure that he is interested in his creations, but I reject your theory, because humans are interested in their creations and so you are “humanizing” him. That is what is wrong with your “perfect answer”.

DAVID: Totally empty point: Having similar thought patterns does not tell us His reasons for His goals.

Nothing can tell us his goal or goals, or his reason for wanting to achieve his goal or goals. But it is absurd to reject a theory on the grounds that it “humanizes” him when you acknowledge that he probably has thought patterns similar to ours.

DAVID: Adler explains why I am correct, and you belittle the unexplained uniqueness of humans arising from apes with no driving force known to us.

dhw: […]: I have always accepted the uniqueness of humans, and your driving force argument can be applied to all species after bacteria. You are simply repeating dodge after dodge to avoid the question I put you on the “error corrections thread”.

DAVID: Of course you accept we are unique.

So why do you say I belittle our uniqueness?

DAVID: That is obvious. Why we appeared in is the point, philosophically. Your answer?

Why did any multicellular organism appear, since bacteria are so successful? I have offered you a philosophical (theistic) explanation for the appearance of ALL organisms, and it also explains theodicy. ALL organisms offer your God something interesting to watch, and humans are particularly interesting. Hence the bolded theory above which you attempt to dismiss with your silly objection that it is “humanizing”.

DAVID: It was not His purpose to find something interesting to create. We guess at his relationship to us, and I'll stick with Adler: 50/50 possibility of interest. You are again humanizing.

dhw: How do you know what his purpose was or was not? Forget Adler. YOU are sure your God watches us with interest, so please tell us why this cannot mean that he created life in order to have something interesting to watch.Your silly “humanizing” argument carries no weight, as explained above.

DAVID: Purpose is defined by studying His works. We are His supreme works. He obviously desired to produce us, His true reasons totally unknown to us, but yes we can guess.

And I have provided a purpose which encompasses the whole of evolution, including all the bad viruses and bacteria, meat-eating, disease, and I have suggested a method which does not entail your God being incapable of correcting errors that cause evil. In case you’ve forgotten: if your God exists, and since you are sure he is interested in his creations, the motive for his creation of life is interest. And free-rein evolution – as exemplified by human free will – leading to good as well as bad is far more interesting that a dull and predictable Garden of Eden.