by David Turell @, Monday, July 02, 2018, 15:47 (768 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: As usual you have ignored my statement that the soul MUST use the brain's networks to process new thought. If you accepted that, your whole position would fall apart. Continue your non-recognition if you wish, but I haven't changed, ever, in this view.

dhw: I keep agreeing that the soul must use the brain’s networks to process new thought. You have simply left out the section of my answer that actually acknowledges and describes the ongoing process. Here it is again:

Of course thought is ongoing, and the “separate consciousness mechanism” doesn’t stop using the brain to supply information and to implement/express its thoughts. The concept of the spear is initiated by the dualist’s soul. It doesn’t come complete. The soul goes on issuing instructions to the brain, which goes on supplying information and giving material expression to the developing concept until pre-sapiens has a spear that will actually kill the live chunk of meat.

DAVID: Think genius brain like Hawking or Einstein as obvious examples. The more complex computer producing a more complex output is a perfect example.

I've bolded the incomplete part of your concept. Concentrate on 'David' just above. Clear thinking cannot avoid what our sapiens brains can allowed to be produced as modern artifacts. The soul has a much more complex computer with which to work, so the thought output is much more complex.

dhw: According to dualists, the complex computer/brain produces the material expression of the complex thoughts of the soul. If you believe the complex thoughts are the “output” of the complex computer/genius brain, you are a materialist, which is fine, but is the cause of all the contradictions I keep pointing out to you.

DAVID: Ignoring my theory as usual. An immaterial soul uses a material brain network to initiate and form thought.

dhw: Yes indeed, but you continue to ignore the question of HOW the soul or “separate consciousness mechanism”, as you have called it, uses the brain, and this is dealt with below.

DAVID: Your inability to understand my written explanation of my theory is amazing. but if you accepted even a portion of it, it would destroy your approach to my big brain enlargement need theory. No wonder you wander around claiming to be confused by what I write.

dhw: There are two issues: the nature of dualism, and whether dualism is true. The former is what we are discussing here, and means the separation of the self into mind and body, soul and brain if you like, which work together in life. I accept your own statement that the soul “drives the initiation of the thought and uses the brain networks to complete it. The brain does not initiate or contribute. The brain is the recipient of the working soul’s output.” (June 24). Let’s modify that slightly by observing that even in initiating the thought, the dualist’s soul uses information provided by the brain (which is a contribution, but not an active one). It continues to use the brain throughout the process of completion, and I have described this ongoing process above with the example of the spear. In initiating the idea, the soul uses existing information (hunger, meat, need to kill). It then uses the brain to develop and implement the idea. And so you are right. I am confused by the theory that the soul, or "SEPARATE consciousness mechanism", which initiates ideas using existing information (it can hardly use information it doesn’t have), cannot initiate ideas until the brain, which does not initiate ideas, has already expanded.

Progress. Simple, and repeated over and over. In being required to use the brain, the soul cannot develop advanced thinking unless the brain network is advanced enough to allow the appearance of advanced thought. And it not primarily expansion. Elephant brains are huge. Erectus brains are only 150 cc smaller, but the presumption is the Erectus frontal cortex did not have five layers of network as we do. And look at our artifacts compared to Erectus as evidence of what the physical state of brains allow in complex thought. My view is the complexity of the brain allows the degree of complexity of thought the soul can create.

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