by dhw, Monday, May 07, 2018, 12:51 (501 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: The s/s/c must use the brain to think during life, so it is likely the s/s/c cannot produce a proper thought with a damaged brain, and may not be able to even form a proper initial thought. I view the s/s/c and The brain as entirely interdependent.

dhw: Thank you. We can now forget the idea that the s/s/c thinks properly but the brain can’t express the thoughts properly...I find it difficult to understand how a piece of your God's immaterial consciousness can be damaged by material disease, but I can fully understand how consciousness that emerges from a material source can be damaged if the source is damaged.

DAVID: You have agreed that the s/s/c and brain are interlocked to work together. The point remains the same. The s/s/c must think using the brain networks and cannot think properly if the networks are sick. The immaterial and material have a definite interface!

I have agreed that in dualism your piece of your God’s consciousness does the thinking and works together with the brain to express/implement its thoughts materially. That is how they interface and are interdependent, and that is why a dualist can believe in the same piece of God’s consciousness still being able to think – independently of the need for material expression/implementation – when it separates from the brain (NDEs and an afterlife).

dhw: I would rewrite your statement as follows: Thought is always completely immaterial unless given material expression or implementation, and this can only be achieved when the s/s/c uses the brain networks. Do you agree?
DAVID: Yes. The s/s/c must use the brain to think during life.

You say yes, and then you repeat the formula I disagree with! The s/s/c uses the brain to give material expression/implementation to its thoughts.

DAVID: I have said that consciousness may well be a quantum energy mechanism in the brain (Penrose) which allows the appearance of consciousness, provided by God. It doesn't solve the problem of consciousness, but is a reasonable theory.
dhw: So do you now agree that your God might have designed a mechanism whereby materials produce consciousness?
DAVID: No. Pure quantum energy is not material. Penrose has it hiding in brain tubules.

That is not what I was asking. Consciousness or intelligence is not material, whether you call it “pure quantum energy” or a “soul”. So do you agree that your God might have designed a mechanism whereby materials produce the conscious energy which dualists call “soul”?

Complete thread:

 RSS Feed of thread

powered by my little forum