by David Turell @, Friday, May 04, 2018, 19:29 (827 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: You have analyzed the bolded point. I think you agree that the s/s/c must work with the brain to produce initial thought'. And if the brain network is sick, the thought will be garbled. The s/s/c itself may not be sick, but unable to produce thought properly.

dhw: In my theory the s/s/c and the brain are inseparable, because the brain produces the s/s/c and then interacts with the rest of the brain. And so if the brain network is sick, the thought will be sick.... In your theory, at one moment you have the s/s/c producing normal thoughts and the brain messing them up (no, it does not work with the brain to produce initial thought), and the next moment you have the brain forcing the s/s/c to think abnormal thoughts (yes, it does work with the brain to produce initial thought). Shall we move on from this blatant contradiction?.

No, you are not following my developing thought. I stand by the statement above. And your theory is pure materialism.

DAVID: Bolded slips away again. The s/s/c is required to use the networks in the brain to create the formation of the thought. Step 1. The s/s/c is an initiator and brain responds, then implements.

dhw: What do you mean “slips away”? If the s/s/c is the initiator, what does it initiate if not the thought? How can you possibly have a thought that has no form? Does the s/s/c think unformed thoughts in NDEs? Do you really believe that a piece of God’s consciousness – your version of the s/s/c – thinks unformed thoughts in the brain but suddenly thinks formed thoughts the moment it leaves the brain? This makes nonsense of dualism. Yes, if you want any consistency in your definition of dualism, the dualist’s brain responds to the thoughts of the dualist’s s/s/c; it does not create the formation of the thought.

This is the quote where you turned the view of the brain//s/s/c into your view of the relationship:
"The soul does the thinking and the brain does the expressing and implementing, as in your dualistic analogy of software and hardware."

My view is that the s/s/c must use the networks of the brain to produce thought as in a computer. Thought is immaterial and has no material form, only grammatical form. Nice twist.

DAVID: I don't accept that the brain alone produces thought. I am very clear on that. The s/s/c must use the frontal lobe to initiate thought. I believe God did it. For me there is no dichotomy. ... I don't see a dichotomy. Consciousness requires a giant frontal lobe and God gave it us. From Lucy on, as the frontal area enlarged, the consciousness mechanism entered and was started in use by that given stage of hominin.

dhw: In your version, as above, the God-given s/s/c initiates thought. Consciousness is the immaterial s/s/c (self/soul/consciousness). You have said that it makes its home in the brain. I also say that its home is in the brain. How, then, can you tell the difference between brain-generated thought and “soul”-generated thought? You can't. Hence the whole debate between dualism and materialism. You don’t see the dichotomy or the contradictions highlighted earlier because you have a fixed belief. I have asked you to point out any logical flaws in my proposal, and your answer is that it conflicts with what you believe. This is like an atheist rejecting your design arguments because they conflict with his belief in chance.

I can make my claims based on NDE evidence, which you have recognized in the past. Logic depends on how you initiate your series of arguments. I disagree with your initial presumptions and have the right to do so. In this current discussion you have come across as a pure materialist. Fine. I'm still a dualist using my logic.

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