Back to theodicy and David's theories (The nature of a \'Creator\')

by David Turell , Friday, May 14, 2021, 20:11 (1287 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: It is amazing you do not see your own discontinuity of thought. The bold above is my belief. Then follows your human judgement about God's thoughts/intentions: "I suggest that what he was doing would not have been designing things that had no connection with what he wanted to do". But you have just stated: "the history of life is the product of what he wanted to do". The history of evolution says we arrived after the rest of the evolutionary bush was created. You can't have it both ways.

dhw: We agree that if God exists, the history of life must be the product of what he wanted to do. The history of life says that prior to our existence there were millions of life forms, econiches, lifestyles, natural wonders etc., 99% of which had no connection with humans. According to you, they were all individually designed by your God. That is not history. According to you, the life form that arrived last was the only reason why he created all the life forms that had no connection with humans. That is not history. If God only wanted to design humans, why did he design the 99% first?

This is your tunnel-visional version of God you think I am describing. Not!!! My view of God has Him fully understanding the necessities of creation in a very full interlocking ecosystem of life, as represented by what we have called the bush of life, to provide the nutrients of life for all. Current events tell us we are approaching eight billion of us. We have to eat!!! What would you think of a God who allowed us to starve? That is the pigmy of a God you are alluding to.

dhw: There are plenty of alternative THEISTIC explanations for the WHOLE history and even for humans being the latest (not necessarily the last) to arrive, all of which you agree make perfect sense: experimentation, getting new ideas as he goes along, enjoyment of creation for its own sake, wanting a free-for-all, and in this context the theory of “cellular intelligence” could result in ever increasing sophistication, as demonstrated even by earlier life forms but reaching a peak in ourselves, who have evolved from one particular branch of those life forms. Your only objection to them is that they present a “humanized” image of your God which is different from your own “humanized” image of your God.

Same problem: we differ 180 degrees on who God should be. Yours represents pure humanizing thoughts about Him.

DAVID: God created us just as He wanted to, despite your judgement He shouldn't have. Contrary to you, I don't judge God. I accept what He has obviously done.

dhw: Wrong, wrong, wrong. If God exists, he would have created the whole bush of life just as he wanted to. My judgement does not relate to God but to your totally illogical theory of a combined purpose and method that you yourself cannot explain.

I don't have to explain God's reasons!!! I accept His works, to which you give lip service, as usual, above in the bold.

dhw: It is your own theory that you accept. And it makes a mockery of your belief that your God acts logically.

Only in your mind as you try for a human god.

Theodicy
Needle design
QUOTE: Many bacterial pathogens rely on virulent type III secretion systems (T3SSs) or injectisomes to translocate effector proteins in order to establish infection.

DAVID: Read these paragraphs slowly as your eyes roll back. Extreme complexity shown beautifully in the diagrams which should be seen to appreciate this DID NOT happen by natural chance events.

dhw: My eyes roll back at the thought of your God – who according to you does everything for “the good” – deliberately designing these beautiful pathogens so that they can inflict these horrible diseases on us.

DAVID: The bacteria developed this attack system long before we arrived to fight them with a God-given giant brain. The only way this type of complexity in a living organism could appear is not naturally but by God's design.

dhw: I suspect there were other animals before us who had the privilege and pleasure of being infected by these bacteria so beautifully designed by your God, and you have not explained why a God who does everything “for the good” would have designed life forms whose purpose is to cause what we consider to be horrendous diseases.

God gave us the brain to conquer them. Have you noticed, most humans die of old age, wearing out?