Back to theodicy and David's theories (The nature of a \'Creator\')

by David Turell , Sunday, April 04, 2021, 19:13 (1327 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: If God exists (and for the sake of our discussions, I am accepting that he does), then of course he created all the conditions for life. No dispute. But that does NOT mean that he directly designed every single life form with the sole purpose of designing H. sapiens, although 99% of them had no connection with humans. Nor does it mean that a God who deliberately creates a free-for-all in life is any more “humanized” than a God who wants total control over his creations.

Free-for-all means no planned destination for evolution. I believe I've given proof of the need for design. Your humanized God doesn't seem to know where He is going.

dhw: There is nothing superficial in discussing God’s possible human attributes, and they are not “allegorical”. If he created our attributes, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that he does not share any of them! Meanwhile, you have not told us what was his goal in designing humans or in designing bad bugs and viruses. There is no point in telling us how purposeful he is if you refuse to discuss his purposes!

DAVID: I haven't refused, I've told you research will unveil His purposes, as we have in the past.

dhw: Then why do you insist that his sole purpose in creating life was to design H. sapiens, and all other life forms were “part of the goal of evolving humans”? If you can make such illogical guesses, which you know as well as I do cannot be “unveiled” by research, why should the rest of us not make guesses about his purposes – especially if they provide logical explanations for the history of life as we know it?

It all depends upon the invent =ed version of God you are using. I have mine vastly different from yours

DAVID: As for God's attributes, all theologians insist we must use allegorical terms.

dhw: There is nothing “allegorical” about attributes such as interest, enjoyment, having a purpose, wanting something such as total control or a free-for-all. You keep using these terms – so what do they stand for if they’re “allegorical”? Either he wants something or he doesn’t.

The attributes are not allegorical within themselves as descriptions, but as applied to God they have to be used allegorically, as all theologians demand.

dhw: Why do you think he wanted us to have freedom in our development?

DAVID: Why not? Perhaps to recognize Him; perhaps to help with metabolic errors; perhaps to let us enjoy our development of abstractions: books, plays, movies, etc.

I like your use of “perhaps”, and wish you would apply it to such theories as your God wanting and having total control. Nice of him perhaps to want us to enjoy our own creations, which we might take as a parallel to himself enjoying his creations; recognition in a literal sense is impossible, since he doesn’t show himself to us, but perhaps you mean acknowledgement of his wonderful powers? Indeed, why not? In that respect, I’d say that we have inherited from him what you would call a “human” attribute.

He made us human. He is not. See 'allegorical' above

QUOTE: Carpediemonas […] must rely on a novel set of mechanisms to carry out these fundamental processes.

DAVID: Nothing to add except it will require research to find out how the organism does it.

dhw: Yes, with my theist’s hat on, I find it much more likely that your God would have given carpediemonas …the means of doing it, rather than having to preprogramme all this 3.8 billion years ago or popping in to do a dabble.

DAVID: Major DNA changes is a "Shapiroian" thought. But this is bigger than a bacteria.
His theory is
dhw: Shapiro does not limit his theory to bacteria, much as you strive to distort his own writings. Calling it “Shapiroian” does not in any way reduce the logic of a conclusion drawn by many distinguished scientists in the field: namely, that cells are intelligent. Nor does it reduce the logic of a theory of evolution based on that conclusion. His theory is still only a recognizable extrapolation as his research still only applies to bacteria.