Back to theodicy and David's theories (The nature of a \'Creator\')

by dhw, Friday, March 19, 2021, 12:23 (50 days ago) @ David Turell

David’s theory of evolution and alternatives

DAVID: Totally confusing. My statement above has always been my position, so what specifically do you find illogical in your mind?

dhw: Yes, you have always stated your belief, and so it is logical that this is what you believe. What I find “specifically illogical” – as if you didn’t know – is the belief itself: namely, that although your God’s one and only purpose was to specifically design H. sapiens, he deliberately designed millions of now extinct life forms, 99% of which had no connection with humans.

DAVID: Total distortion of my belief, which starts with the position God CHOSE to evolve humans from bacteria, as history shows and therefore had to design all the life forms you question.

If God exists, he CHOSE to evolve (by which you mean design) every life form from bacteria. Why did he “have to” directly design the 99% of life forms that had no connection with humans and their food supply if his only purpose was to design sapiens and his food supply? What part of your belief am I “distorting”? I am asking for an explanation of your illogical version of your God’s purpose and method of achieving it. You have “no idea” why, and so you continue to dodge.

DAVID: Tight control is not necessarily humanizing. A purposeful God (His personality) would necessarily keep tight controls. You have never understood my complaint of humanizing. God is never a human person in any aspect of His thoughts or desires.

dhw: I have never said he was a human person. If his purpose was to create an ever changing bush of life by designing a mechanism enabling life forms to design their own ways of survival, he would “necessarily” have given them free rein.

DAVID: And change His personality in my view. I view He as fully purposeful, knows His goals, and would not allow secondhand drift of evolution.

Yes, if my theory is correct, it would mean that he did allow free rein as opposed to wanting tight control. He would, however, be fully purposeful, know his goals, and create a free-for-all system that would produce precisely the vast bush of life forms that have come and gone, 99% of which had no connection with humans, thereby at last relieving you of the burden of explaining why he would have directly designed 99% of life forms that had nothing to do with humans, although he only wanted to design humans. And – just to help you accept this marvellous solution to the dilemma you try to dodge (not to mention the problem of theodicy) – he could also have reserved the right to dabble.

dhw: Why is it not humanizing to say he enjoys/likes creating, but it is humanizing to deduce from this obvious certainty that he might possibly create because he enjoys/likes creating?

DAVID: God must be approached at all times allegorically. His 'enjoyment' may not be like ours.

dhw: Please tell us how God communicated this "must" to you. However, we can happily let him have his own form of “enjoyment”. So now we have God enjoying creating in his own way, and therefore it is possible that his purpose in creating life was to create something he could enjoy in his own way. Why is that deduction to be dismissed as “humanizing” whereas his enjoyment of creation in his own way is not “humanizing”. Your opposition to this theory is based on one long quibble.

DAVID: I think that comment about God almost comes very close to how I try to reason about God. The bold is your usual slip: God does not need to provide self-enjoyment.

Where did I say he “needed” to do anything? If you agree that his purpose in creating life could have been to create something he could enjoy in his own way, then at long last I trust you will drop the silly “humanizing” objection and accept that this is a feasible theory. We cannot do more than propose feasible theories.


DAVID: most parasites have a lifecycle through host animals. It is a wonder how they develop. Stepwise does not seem possible since the parasite has to depend on specific hosts to survive. Was this designed by God? And for what purpose? I'm left with pure guesswork.

So are we all, but we can add “bad” parasites to our list of “bad” bacteria and viruses, and to errors in the system that lead to “bad” diseases. And still I don’t know why you reject the feasibility of a free-for-all, which would at least rid us of the idea that he deliberately designed “bad” things which you hope will somehow prove to be “good”.

Gut immune system

DAVID: 'Good' bacteria play a vital role in our digestion, but there must be designed controls for lurking pathogens in the mix.

Yes, it’s the pathogens that are your problem.

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