Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds (Introduction)

by dhw, Sunday, September 27, 2020, 12:44 (1300 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: their current brain complexity allows what they can do. Which translates into my view that what level of mental complexity occurs is based on the number of neurons and their networks complex design. One can only work with what is given. We work with a brain given to us at least 315,000 years ago and its complexity allowed what has subsequently happened.

dhw: I agree that the brain’s complexity, neuron numbers and networks allow what any of us can DO and determine what we can work with. The great question is whether they allow what any of us can THINK, and surprisingly you argue that they are the base which determines the level of mental complexity. “Surprisingly” because this clashes with the dualism you always claim to espouse. '''perhaps we can shorten it with a simple question: do you believe the thoughts of your dualist’s soul are restricted by the numbers of neurons and their networks?

DAVID: Why ask again: I've always said the soul can only work with the brain it is given, complexity of concept limited by brain complexity. My dualism has not changed.

We agree that the soul can only work with the brain it is given. But that should not stop the soul from using the information provided by the brain to think of new concepts. And yet you say that the “level of MENTAL complexity (i.e. non-material thought) is based on the number of neurons and their networks complex design” (i.e. the material brain). As I understand it, dualism entails the soul doing the thinking and the brain providing the information and implementing the thought. This is what I believe you agreed in the past.

DAVID: Apes survived just fine without morphing into our big brains.

dhw: And bacteria survived just fine without morphing into apes and dinosaurs and the duck-billed platypus. How does that prove that every organism that ever lived was “part of the goal of evolving humans”?

DAVID: Your usual backwards approach. All of evolution was designed by God to eventually reach the goal of humans.

You keep repeating this, and I keep asking why an all-powerful God with only one purpose (H. sapiens) directly designed millions of now extinct non-human life forms, natural wonders etc. before even starting on directly designing all the different stages that led to the only life form (plus food supply) that he wanted to design. Back to “Back to David’s Theory…” Once again: how does the fact that bacteria morphed into apes, dinosaurs and the duck-billed platypus prove that they were all “part of the goal of evolving humans”?

QUOTE: "With our study we show that cognitive abilities cannot be generalized, but that species instead differ in domain-specific cognitive skills…"

dhw: The bold is an important observation in the context of my speculations about evolution and intelligence. Firstly, there are different types of intelligence, and the fact that ants, for instance, only have tiny brains does not mean they do not have the intelligence to work out their own strategies for survival. But I would go even further. Bacteria and other single cells don’t have brains at all, but as you know, I propose that they do have intelligence, i.e. that somewhere within that tiny space is the equivalent of a brain. And that would explain how single cells can also differ in “domain-specific cognitive skills”.

DAVID: We haven't seen bacterial brains as yet with the finest of the newest technical methods but we can follow individual molecules as they work within systems, and we know whole bacteria or cells follow exact instructions for the processes or how they respond to stimuli, all from information in the complexity of the genomes that we are still unearthing. They simply look intelligent and that is all we know at the moment.

We don’t “know” that bacteria or cells follow exact instructions from your God. We know that they perform all kinds of actions successfully, and it is impossible not to believe that these result from some form of intelligence. You claim the intelligence is in the form of instructions from God, and I propose that they work out solutions for themselves, and whatever mechanism it is that enables them to “think” passes instructions to the rest of the cell.

DAVID: domain-specific cognitive skills are just that for cells and whole organisms as we observe. It does not mean they use their own innate intelligence or are subject to intelligent information instructions. I believe the latter and you the former. That will not change as long as you remain agnostic.

My agnosticism is totally irrelevant, and I wish you wouldn’t keep using it as your escape route. It is perfectly possible to believe in a God who endowed cells with intelligence.