Clever Corvids: using tools (Introduction)

by dhw, Wednesday, September 09, 2015, 13:17 (3363 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Now that organisms produce their own independent innovations (as opposed to being preprogrammed), I wonder how God can limit their scope and direction other than through the nature of the organism itself and the environment. I can only think of him intervening if he doesn't like them or if he needs an innovation to take a particular organism in the direction of humans, but perhaps you have other means of guidance in mind? 
DAVID: I think defined patterns and limits would work. The Pentadactyl pattern of feet as an example on board in the limitations instructions.-I see such patterns as examples of convergence, once certain intelligent cell communities had found the most efficient form of limb for their particular way of life. Of course there are vast numbers of cell communities that have devised different forms. That is the beauty of the independent inventive mechanism: it explains all the different varieties. -DAVID: My view is the sharing of information is through chemical signals to which the cells respond automatically using the intelligent information and instructions they have to use.
As in this article about quorum sensing by molecular signals:-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/molecular-tweeting-could-hold-the-key-to-bust...-"Bacteria communicate by exchanging signaling molecules, a process known as quorum sensing. The idea is to find out what's behind the behavior of these pathogens and how it can be fought using antibiotics, quorum-sensing inhibitors or even probiotics, he adds."-Yes, they use their own physical means of communication, just as we do. But the researchers are trying to find out what is behind their behaviour. You only focus on the physical manifestations, whereas they are trying to find the “thinking” that leads to those manifestations. You insist that the thinking doesn't exist, and they are only obeying instructions passed onto them since life began. See below:-dhw: In the name of Ockham, wouldn't it be simpler if cells used their own (God-given?) intelligence to process and exchange new information as and when it came in, and to cooperate in taking their own decisions accordingly?
DAVID: Within limits and patterns as described above.-The limits are clear (individual and environmental). Bacteria will behave as bacteria, if that is what you mean by patterns. Perhaps their bacterial behaviour is caused by the fact that they “think” as bacteria.-dhw: No one is claiming that cells have the range or even the form of intelligence that we have. The claim is that within their own limitations, they work together intelligently and not automatically to reach their decisions.-DAVID: One cannot tell the difference between using intelligence and following intelligent information they have been given. Example: I wanted to be a physician, but could not intelligently act in that role until I had the training (given to me) to then perform intelligent acts as a physician.-An excellent analogy. Thanks to your intelligence, you were able to absorb and process all the information necessary for your role and then use it appropriately. You are not an automaton. Thanks to their intelligence, bacteria are able to absorb and process all the information necessary for their role and then use it appropriately. They are not automatons.