Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought (Introduction)
An experiment in which Ravens are allowed to know another bird might be present to steal food from their cache, and how they react:-http://phys.org/news/2016-02-birds-theorize-minds.html-"The study, "Ravens Attribute Visual Access to Unseen Competitors," was published Feb. 2 in Nature Communications. It found that ravens guarded caches of food against discovery in response to the sounds of other ravens if a nearby peephole was open, even if they did not see another bird. They did not show the same concern when the peephole was closed, despite the auditory cues.-"The findings shed new light on science's understanding of Theory of Mind, the ability to attribute mental states - including vision - to others, said Cameron Buckner, assistant professor of philosophy at the University of Houston. Buckner is an author of the paper, along with Thomas Bugnyar and Stephan A. Reber, cognitive biologists at the University of Vienna.-***-"The ability to cache food is important to ravens, and previous research had shown they behave differently when they perceive a competitor watching. For example, when ravens are being watched, they hide food more quickly and are less likely to return to a previously made cache, both of which might reveal the location of a cache to a possible pilferer. If they do not think they are being watched, they spend more time on the task.-"This study involved two rooms, connected both by windows, which could be opened or covered, and by peepholes, which could be open or closed. The ravens were trained to look through the peepholes to observe a human experimenter making caches in the adjacent room. During the final phase of the test, both windows were covered but a peephole was open. A hidden speaker played sounds of a raven competitor, but no other bird was present. The subjects still cached as though they were being watched.-"'We show that ravens ... can generalize from their own experience using the peephole as a pilferer and predict that audible competitors could potentially see their caches (through the peephole)," the authors write. "Consequently, we argue that they represent 'seeing' in a way that cannot be reduced to the tracking of gaze cues."-"The findings offer needed information in several arenas, Buckner said, including evidence that ravens could serve as animal models in research involving social cognition.-"It also offers new evidence about the capacities involved in Theory of Mind and abstract thinking, Buckner said. "It could change our perception of human uniqueness, that we share some of that ability not just with chimpanzees and closely related species but also with a very different species."-"Buckner said the next step will be to see which other animals are capable of the kind of abstraction assessed in the peephole test, "especially humans, since we don't know when this ability emerges in childhood.-"'Finding that Theory of Mind is present in birds would require us to give up a popular story as to what makes humans special," he said. "But completing this evolutionary and developmental picture will bring us much closer to figuring out what's really unique about the human mind.'" -Comment: This study is straining at the bit. The birds hear other birds might be present. It doesn't take a very smart bird to recognize that a thief may be present nearby even if unseen and speedy caching is wise. Still those birds are bright.
Complete thread:
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
David Turell,
2011-06-29, 15:28
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
xeno6696,
2011-07-02, 14:01
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
David Turell,
2011-07-02, 15:00
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
xeno6696,
2011-07-02, 15:44
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing - David Turell, 2011-07-02, 17:42
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
David Turell,
2012-10-10, 13:50
- Clever Corvids -
David Turell,
2013-02-05, 20:00
- Clever Corvids -
David Turell,
2013-12-01, 05:56
- Clever Corvids: patience -
David Turell,
2014-03-11, 18:58
- Clever Corvids: beckedness -
David Turell,
2014-12-05, 01:48
- Clever Corvids: vs. two-year olds -
David Turell,
2014-12-13, 18:53
- Clever Corvids: analytic thinking -
David Turell,
2015-02-10, 19:43
- Clever Corvids: clever Mexican jays -
David Turell,
2015-05-23, 17:43
- Clever Corvids: keeping count -
David Turell,
2015-06-09, 18:02
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-29, 00:08
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-29, 08:45
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-29, 14:21
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-30, 21:26
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-30, 23:29
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-31, 19:24
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-01, 01:39
- Clever Corvids - consciousness derail -
romansh,
2015-09-01, 13:51
- Clever Corvids - consciousness derail - David Turell, 2015-09-01, 20:36
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-01, 16:25
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 00:33
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 00:51
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 01:06
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 01:23
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 04:28
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 13:39
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 14:06
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-03, 01:32
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-03, 04:44
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-03, 04:46
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail - David Turell, 2015-09-03, 14:46
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-03, 04:46
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-03, 04:44
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-03, 01:32
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 14:06
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 13:39
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 04:28
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 01:23
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 01:06
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-02, 20:23
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 22:16
- Clever Corvids: responsese without neurons - David Turell, 2015-09-02, 22:57
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-03, 21:25
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-03, 22:32
- Clever Corvids: using tools - David Turell, 2015-09-04, 13:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-04, 19:03
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-04, 21:58
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-05, 10:49
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-05, 19:04
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-06, 15:31
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-06, 18:24
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-07, 19:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-07, 23:01
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-08, 17:47
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-08, 18:02
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-09, 13:17
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-09, 14:29
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-10, 11:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-10, 14:17
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-11, 16:22
- Clever Corvids: using tools - David Turell, 2015-09-14, 01:19
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-14, 19:38
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-15, 00:48
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-15, 20:11
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-17, 13:14
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-17, 14:17
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-18, 16:17
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-18, 17:20
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-19, 12:54
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-19, 14:08
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-20, 17:41
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-20, 18:26
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-21, 10:44
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-21, 14:43
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-22, 09:58
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-22, 15:03
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-23, 13:59
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use - David Turell, 2016-03-23, 14:32
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-23, 13:59
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-22, 15:03
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-22, 09:58
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-21, 14:43
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-21, 10:44
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-20, 18:26
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-20, 17:41
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-19, 14:08
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-19, 12:54
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-18, 17:20
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
BBella,
2016-03-20, 02:53
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use - David Turell, 2016-03-20, 04:57
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-21, 11:17
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-21, 15:30
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-22, 10:25
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-22, 15:15
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-23, 14:05
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach - David Turell, 2016-03-23, 14:38
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-23, 14:05
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-22, 15:15
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-22, 10:25
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
BBella,
2016-03-23, 19:56
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-23, 20:23
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-24, 13:26
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-24, 14:59
- Clever Corvids: As clever as apes -
David Turell,
2016-04-26, 19:41
- Clever Corvids: due to neuron number and design -
David Turell,
2016-06-14, 15:52
- Clever Corvids: Hawaiin species found - David Turell, 2016-09-14, 19:56
- Clever Corvids: due to neuron number and design -
David Turell,
2016-06-14, 15:52
- Clever Corvids: As clever as apes -
David Turell,
2016-04-26, 19:41
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-24, 14:59
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-24, 13:26
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-23, 20:23
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-21, 15:30
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-18, 16:17
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-17, 14:17
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-17, 13:14
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-15, 20:11
- Clever Corvids: parrots using tools -
David Turell,
2015-12-16, 01:26
- Clever Corvids: hooked tools & saving them -
David Turell,
2015-12-23, 15:55
- Clever Corvids: observe their dead -
David Turell,
2016-01-09, 05:26
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-02-03, 01:10
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-04, 21:50
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-05, 13:28
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-05, 14:48
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-06, 17:28
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-07, 14:56
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-08, 18:10
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-09-22, 20:26
- Clever Corvids: and others in a review -
David Turell,
2016-12-04, 00:49
- Clever Corvids: and others. Chickens! -
David Turell,
2017-01-04, 01:03
- Clever Corvids: ravens can remember and plan -
David Turell,
2017-07-13, 23:20
- Clever Corvids: handle probability better than we -
David Turell,
2018-05-30, 19:03
- Clever Corvids: making new tool from memory -
David Turell,
2018-06-28, 19:31
- Clever Corvids: making new tool from memory -
David Turell,
2018-07-02, 17:47
- Clever Corvids: inventing a tool to reach food -
David Turell,
2018-10-24, 20:25
- Clever Corvids: no! parrots inventing a tool to reach food -
David Turell,
2018-11-08, 23:50
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-23, 23:55
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-24, 12:08
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-24, 15:28
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-25, 09:00
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-25, 19:47
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-26, 11:50
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-26, 19:13
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-27, 15:42
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-27, 17:22
- Clever Corvids: estimating weight after training -
David Turell,
2019-01-09, 21:48
- Clever Corvids: controlling song calls -
David Turell,
2019-08-27, 19:17
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-24, 22:28
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-25, 12:32
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-26, 00:08
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-26, 12:30
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-26, 20:36
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-27, 12:44
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-27, 17:00
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-28, 14:14
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-28, 17:56
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-29, 14:18
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-29, 17:19
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-30, 10:59
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-30, 15:48
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-10-01, 11:30
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-10-01, 16:48
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-10-02, 12:26
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds - David Turell, 2020-10-02, 19:40
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-10-02, 12:26
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-10-01, 16:48
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-10-01, 11:30
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-30, 15:48
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-30, 10:59
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-29, 17:19
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-29, 14:18
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-28, 17:56
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-28, 14:14
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-27, 17:00
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-27, 12:44
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-26, 20:36
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-26, 12:30
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-26, 00:08
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-25, 12:32
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-24, 22:28
- Clever Corvids: controlling song calls -
David Turell,
2019-08-27, 19:17
- Clever Corvids: estimating weight after training -
David Turell,
2019-01-09, 21:48
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-27, 17:22
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-27, 15:42
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-26, 19:13
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-26, 11:50
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-25, 19:47
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-25, 09:00
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-24, 15:28
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-24, 12:08
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-23, 23:55
- Clever Corvids: no! parrots inventing a tool to reach food -
David Turell,
2018-11-08, 23:50
- Clever Corvids: now New Zealand robins show memory -
David Turell,
2020-02-19, 18:22
- Clever Corvids: as smart as apes -
David Turell,
2020-12-10, 22:31
- Clever Corvids: other birds braininess -
David Turell,
2022-03-31, 17:50
- Clever Corvids: understanding probability -
David Turell,
2023-07-07, 17:46
- Clever Corvids: more song calls more problem solving -
David Turell,
2023-09-15, 15:17
- Clever Corvids: crows count outloud - David Turell, 2024-05-24, 16:05
- Clever Corvids: more song calls more problem solving -
David Turell,
2023-09-15, 15:17
- Clever Corvids: understanding probability -
David Turell,
2023-07-07, 17:46
- Clever Corvids: other birds braininess -
David Turell,
2022-03-31, 17:50
- Clever Corvids: as smart as apes -
David Turell,
2020-12-10, 22:31
- Clever Corvids: inventing a tool to reach food -
David Turell,
2018-10-24, 20:25
- Clever Corvids: making new tool from memory -
David Turell,
2018-07-02, 17:47
- Clever Corvids: making new tool from memory -
David Turell,
2018-06-28, 19:31
- Clever Corvids: handle probability better than we -
David Turell,
2018-05-30, 19:03
- Clever Corvids: ravens can remember and plan -
David Turell,
2017-07-13, 23:20
- Clever Corvids: and others. Chickens! -
David Turell,
2017-01-04, 01:03
- Clever Corvids: and others in a review -
David Turell,
2016-12-04, 00:49
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-09-22, 20:26
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-08, 18:10
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-07, 14:56
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-06, 17:28
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-05, 14:48
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-05, 13:28
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-04, 21:50
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-02-03, 01:10
- Clever Corvids: observe their dead -
David Turell,
2016-01-09, 05:26
- Clever Corvids: hooked tools & saving them -
David Turell,
2015-12-23, 15:55
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-15, 00:48
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-11, 16:22
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-10, 14:17
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-10, 11:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-09, 14:29
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-09, 13:17
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-08, 18:02
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-08, 17:47
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-07, 23:01
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-07, 19:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-06, 18:24
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-06, 15:31
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-05, 19:04
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-05, 10:49
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-04, 21:58
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-03, 22:32
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 22:16
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 00:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 00:33
- Clever Corvids - consciousness derail -
romansh,
2015-09-01, 13:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-01, 01:39
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-31, 19:24
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-30, 23:29
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-30, 21:26
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-29, 14:21
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-29, 08:45
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-29, 00:08
- Clever Corvids: keeping count -
David Turell,
2015-06-09, 18:02
- Clever Corvids: clever Mexican jays -
David Turell,
2015-05-23, 17:43
- Clever Corvids: analytic thinking -
David Turell,
2015-02-10, 19:43
- Clever Corvids: vs. two-year olds -
David Turell,
2014-12-13, 18:53
- Clever Corvids: beckedness -
David Turell,
2014-12-05, 01:48
- Clever Corvids: patience -
David Turell,
2014-03-11, 18:58
- Clever Corvids -
David Turell,
2013-12-01, 05:56
- Clever Corvids -
David Turell,
2013-02-05, 20:00
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
xeno6696,
2011-07-02, 15:44
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
David Turell,
2011-07-02, 15:00
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
xeno6696,
2011-07-02, 14:01