Clever Corvids: more on how clever (Introduction)
Using more than one item to make a tool:
https://mindmatters.ai/2018/11/crows-can-be-as-smart-as-apes/
"Some (though not most) birds can learn new skills as readily as primates. New Zealand crows can create compound tools “by combining two or more otherwise non-functional elements, an ability so far observed only in humans and great apes”; they can though estimate sizes and shapes of paper for a reward, though they do not use paper in the wild.
"Some New Caledonian crows can use three tools in a row to reach food. As a result, some researchers have called crows “feathered primates.” New Zealand crows’ causal understanding (within limits) is said to rival that of 5-7 year old children. Or 7- to 10-year old children.
It’s not just crows, either. Pigeons can work with numbers up to nine with a success that is “indistinguishable from that displayed by monkeys.” Even the chicken’s intelligence “startles” some researchers (“communication skills on par with those of some primates”).
"Do such skills “redefine intelligence,” or explain “how technology evolved,” as sometimes claimed? Well, not really. It’s the same sort of intelligence as we find in primates but exhibited in a quite different brain structure:
"Corvids, such as crows, ravens and magpies, are among the most intelligent birds on the planet—the list of their cognitive achievements goes on and on—yet neuroscientists have not scrutinized their brains for one simple reason: They don’t have a neocortex. The obsession with the neocortex in neuroscience research is not unwarranted; what’s unwarranted is the notion that the neocortex alone is responsible for sophisticated cognition. Because birds lack this structure—the most recently evolved portion of the mammalian brain, crucial to human intelligence—neuroscientists have largely and unfortunately neglected the neural basis of corvid intelligence…
"If neuroscientists want to know how brains produce intelligence, looking solely at the neocortex won’t cut it; they must study how corvid brains achieve the same clever behaviors that we see in ourselves and other mammals.
"So brain structure cannot be the simple explanation we might have supposed. Can we turn to evolution for an explanation? Not really. We don’t know when, how, or why some birds started making and using stick tools so it’s hard to do more than speculate about the evolution of the trait.
"There’s another problem as well: The birds display these skills in a setting that humans have designed so that the birds might succeed (so that, in turn, the humans can publish in a science journal, of course). It’s fair to ask what role such focused, goal-oriented human intervention plays in increasing certain types of intelligence in the birds. The clear, systematic reward system not only exists but is designed to be apparent to the bird. Nature does not usually arrange such systems. If a bird seldom gets exactly the same test repeated in a natural state, its ability to learn may be frustrated, irrespective of its native intelligence.
"Some might respond by saying that only some species of birds are as clever as primates are with tools. That’s true, but then only some species of mammals are as clever as primates are about anything.
"We don’t know very much about intelligence in animals and birds but we do know that it is not a function of the mechanical organization of their brains. That raises a question: If artificial intelligence really came to exist, would it depend on the organization of the mechanism?"
Comment: Much more to the point is a mind that a works on problems are not a brain. IT always must be something more, as we know full well in humans.
Complete thread:
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
David Turell,
2011-06-29, 15:28
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
xeno6696,
2011-07-02, 14:01
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
David Turell,
2011-07-02, 15:00
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
xeno6696,
2011-07-02, 15:44
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing - David Turell, 2011-07-02, 17:42
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
David Turell,
2012-10-10, 13:50
- Clever Corvids -
David Turell,
2013-02-05, 20:00
- Clever Corvids -
David Turell,
2013-12-01, 05:56
- Clever Corvids: patience -
David Turell,
2014-03-11, 18:58
- Clever Corvids: beckedness -
David Turell,
2014-12-05, 01:48
- Clever Corvids: vs. two-year olds -
David Turell,
2014-12-13, 18:53
- Clever Corvids: analytic thinking -
David Turell,
2015-02-10, 19:43
- Clever Corvids: clever Mexican jays -
David Turell,
2015-05-23, 17:43
- Clever Corvids: keeping count -
David Turell,
2015-06-09, 18:02
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-29, 00:08
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-29, 08:45
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-29, 14:21
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-30, 21:26
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-30, 23:29
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-31, 19:24
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-01, 01:39
- Clever Corvids - consciousness derail -
romansh,
2015-09-01, 13:51
- Clever Corvids - consciousness derail - David Turell, 2015-09-01, 20:36
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-01, 16:25
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 00:33
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 00:51
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 01:06
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 01:23
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 04:28
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 13:39
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 14:06
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-03, 01:32
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-03, 04:44
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-03, 04:46
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail - David Turell, 2015-09-03, 14:46
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-03, 04:46
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-03, 04:44
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-03, 01:32
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 14:06
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 13:39
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 04:28
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 01:23
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 01:06
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-02, 20:23
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 22:16
- Clever Corvids: responsese without neurons - David Turell, 2015-09-02, 22:57
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-03, 21:25
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-03, 22:32
- Clever Corvids: using tools - David Turell, 2015-09-04, 13:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-04, 19:03
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-04, 21:58
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-05, 10:49
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-05, 19:04
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-06, 15:31
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-06, 18:24
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-07, 19:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-07, 23:01
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-08, 17:47
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-08, 18:02
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-09, 13:17
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-09, 14:29
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-10, 11:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-10, 14:17
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-11, 16:22
- Clever Corvids: using tools - David Turell, 2015-09-14, 01:19
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-14, 19:38
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-15, 00:48
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-15, 20:11
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-17, 13:14
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-17, 14:17
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-18, 16:17
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-18, 17:20
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-19, 12:54
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-19, 14:08
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-20, 17:41
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-20, 18:26
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-21, 10:44
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-21, 14:43
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-22, 09:58
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-22, 15:03
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-23, 13:59
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use - David Turell, 2016-03-23, 14:32
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-23, 13:59
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-22, 15:03
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-22, 09:58
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-21, 14:43
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-21, 10:44
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-20, 18:26
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-20, 17:41
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-19, 14:08
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-19, 12:54
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-18, 17:20
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
BBella,
2016-03-20, 02:53
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use - David Turell, 2016-03-20, 04:57
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-21, 11:17
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-21, 15:30
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-22, 10:25
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-22, 15:15
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-23, 14:05
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach - David Turell, 2016-03-23, 14:38
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-23, 14:05
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-22, 15:15
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-22, 10:25
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
BBella,
2016-03-23, 19:56
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-23, 20:23
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-24, 13:26
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-24, 14:59
- Clever Corvids: As clever as apes -
David Turell,
2016-04-26, 19:41
- Clever Corvids: due to neuron number and design -
David Turell,
2016-06-14, 15:52
- Clever Corvids: Hawaiin species found - David Turell, 2016-09-14, 19:56
- Clever Corvids: due to neuron number and design -
David Turell,
2016-06-14, 15:52
- Clever Corvids: As clever as apes -
David Turell,
2016-04-26, 19:41
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-24, 14:59
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
dhw,
2016-03-24, 13:26
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-23, 20:23
- Clever Corvids: BBella's approach -
David Turell,
2016-03-21, 15:30
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-18, 16:17
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-17, 14:17
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
dhw,
2016-03-17, 13:14
- Clever Corvids: unique beaks for tool use -
David Turell,
2016-03-15, 20:11
- Clever Corvids: parrots using tools -
David Turell,
2015-12-16, 01:26
- Clever Corvids: hooked tools & saving them -
David Turell,
2015-12-23, 15:55
- Clever Corvids: observe their dead -
David Turell,
2016-01-09, 05:26
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-02-03, 01:10
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-04, 21:50
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-05, 13:28
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-05, 14:48
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-06, 17:28
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-07, 14:56
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-08, 18:10
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-09-22, 20:26
- Clever Corvids: and others in a review -
David Turell,
2016-12-04, 00:49
- Clever Corvids: and others. Chickens! -
David Turell,
2017-01-04, 01:03
- Clever Corvids: ravens can remember and plan -
David Turell,
2017-07-13, 23:20
- Clever Corvids: handle probability better than we -
David Turell,
2018-05-30, 19:03
- Clever Corvids: making new tool from memory -
David Turell,
2018-06-28, 19:31
- Clever Corvids: making new tool from memory -
David Turell,
2018-07-02, 17:47
- Clever Corvids: inventing a tool to reach food -
David Turell,
2018-10-24, 20:25
- Clever Corvids: no! parrots inventing a tool to reach food -
David Turell,
2018-11-08, 23:50
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-23, 23:55
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-24, 12:08
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-24, 15:28
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-25, 09:00
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-25, 19:47
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-26, 11:50
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-26, 19:13
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-27, 15:42
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-27, 17:22
- Clever Corvids: estimating weight after training -
David Turell,
2019-01-09, 21:48
- Clever Corvids: controlling song calls -
David Turell,
2019-08-27, 19:17
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-24, 22:28
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-25, 12:32
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-26, 00:08
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-26, 12:30
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-26, 20:36
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-27, 12:44
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-27, 17:00
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-28, 14:14
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-28, 17:56
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-29, 14:18
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-29, 17:19
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-30, 10:59
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-30, 15:48
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-10-01, 11:30
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-10-01, 16:48
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-10-02, 12:26
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds - David Turell, 2020-10-02, 19:40
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-10-02, 12:26
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-10-01, 16:48
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-10-01, 11:30
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-30, 15:48
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-30, 10:59
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-29, 17:19
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-29, 14:18
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-28, 17:56
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-28, 14:14
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-27, 17:00
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-27, 12:44
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-26, 20:36
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-26, 12:30
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-26, 00:08
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
dhw,
2020-09-25, 12:32
- Clever Corvids: the cortical equivalent in many birds -
David Turell,
2020-09-24, 22:28
- Clever Corvids: controlling song calls -
David Turell,
2019-08-27, 19:17
- Clever Corvids: estimating weight after training -
David Turell,
2019-01-09, 21:48
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-27, 17:22
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-27, 15:42
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-26, 19:13
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-26, 11:50
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-25, 19:47
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-25, 09:00
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-24, 15:28
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
dhw,
2018-11-24, 12:08
- Clever Corvids: more on how clever -
David Turell,
2018-11-23, 23:55
- Clever Corvids: no! parrots inventing a tool to reach food -
David Turell,
2018-11-08, 23:50
- Clever Corvids: now New Zealand robins show memory -
David Turell,
2020-02-19, 18:22
- Clever Corvids: as smart as apes -
David Turell,
2020-12-10, 22:31
- Clever Corvids: other birds braininess -
David Turell,
2022-03-31, 17:50
- Clever Corvids: understanding probability -
David Turell,
2023-07-07, 17:46
- Clever Corvids: more song calls more problem solving -
David Turell,
2023-09-15, 15:17
- Clever Corvids: crows count outloud - David Turell, 2024-05-24, 16:05
- Clever Corvids: more song calls more problem solving -
David Turell,
2023-09-15, 15:17
- Clever Corvids: understanding probability -
David Turell,
2023-07-07, 17:46
- Clever Corvids: other birds braininess -
David Turell,
2022-03-31, 17:50
- Clever Corvids: as smart as apes -
David Turell,
2020-12-10, 22:31
- Clever Corvids: inventing a tool to reach food -
David Turell,
2018-10-24, 20:25
- Clever Corvids: making new tool from memory -
David Turell,
2018-07-02, 17:47
- Clever Corvids: making new tool from memory -
David Turell,
2018-06-28, 19:31
- Clever Corvids: handle probability better than we -
David Turell,
2018-05-30, 19:03
- Clever Corvids: ravens can remember and plan -
David Turell,
2017-07-13, 23:20
- Clever Corvids: and others. Chickens! -
David Turell,
2017-01-04, 01:03
- Clever Corvids: and others in a review -
David Turell,
2016-12-04, 00:49
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-09-22, 20:26
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-08, 18:10
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-07, 14:56
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-06, 17:28
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-05, 14:48
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
dhw,
2016-03-05, 13:28
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-03-04, 21:50
- Clever Corvids: a degree of abstract thought -
David Turell,
2016-02-03, 01:10
- Clever Corvids: observe their dead -
David Turell,
2016-01-09, 05:26
- Clever Corvids: hooked tools & saving them -
David Turell,
2015-12-23, 15:55
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-15, 00:48
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-11, 16:22
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-10, 14:17
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-10, 11:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-09, 14:29
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-09, 13:17
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-08, 18:02
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-08, 17:47
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-07, 23:01
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-07, 19:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-06, 18:24
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-06, 15:31
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-05, 19:04
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-09-05, 10:49
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-04, 21:58
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-03, 22:32
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 22:16
- Clever Corvids: intelligence derail -
romansh,
2015-09-02, 00:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-02, 00:33
- Clever Corvids - consciousness derail -
romansh,
2015-09-01, 13:51
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-09-01, 01:39
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-31, 19:24
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-30, 23:29
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-30, 21:26
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-29, 14:21
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
dhw,
2015-08-29, 08:45
- Clever Corvids: using tools -
David Turell,
2015-08-29, 00:08
- Clever Corvids: keeping count -
David Turell,
2015-06-09, 18:02
- Clever Corvids: clever Mexican jays -
David Turell,
2015-05-23, 17:43
- Clever Corvids: analytic thinking -
David Turell,
2015-02-10, 19:43
- Clever Corvids: vs. two-year olds -
David Turell,
2014-12-13, 18:53
- Clever Corvids: beckedness -
David Turell,
2014-12-05, 01:48
- Clever Corvids: patience -
David Turell,
2014-03-11, 18:58
- Clever Corvids -
David Turell,
2013-12-01, 05:56
- Clever Corvids -
David Turell,
2013-02-05, 20:00
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
xeno6696,
2011-07-02, 15:44
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
David Turell,
2011-07-02, 15:00
- For Matt: Corvids are amazing -
xeno6696,
2011-07-02, 14:01