Clever Corvids: more on how clever (Introduction)

by David Turell , Monday, November 26, 2018, 19:13 (2189 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: That is not the issue at all. What is “true” intelligence, as opposed to intelligence? You have gone back to the great big wiggle of defining intelligence as self-awareness. There are degrees of intelligence, as you have admitted in the past when talking about your dog and corvids and other problem-solving creatures (problem-solving being the prime means by which scientists test for intelligence). But now apparently you think that only humans are intelligent. (now bolded by dhw)

DAVID: You have misinterpreted my comment. We are back to the debate whether an action is understood as knowledgeably intended or automatic and the result of instinct. Those of us with consciousness know why we respond as we do.

dhw: And that is what you called “true” intelligence. I challenge that concept and argue that there are degrees of intelligence. (Bold above)

Of course, but I'm referring to the ability to have introspection and an understanding of why we decide to do what we do.

DAVID: I've lived with dogs most of my life. [You then recount various experiences, but crucially you continue:) I agree he showed intelligent purpose. But he only has a minor degree of that, compared to me.

dhw: Precisely as I said: there are degrees of intelligence, as opposed to your "true intelligence". (Bold above)

DAVID: So back to cells: they have no degree of cognitive understanding and therefore reacting with what looks intelligent but all they are doing is following an intelligent designed response to a stimulus.

dhw: And so you go back to your “large organs chauvinism” (Shapiro) by repeating your belief - as if it were a fact - that cells merely follow your God’s instructions. “My” scientists specifically argue that cells do have a degree of cognitive understanding.

Which is only their stated opinion , but never proof or fact, based on their studies which I have reviewed. Cells are automated factories, which is all they have shown. The 'intelligence' is a human interpretation of the studied logical reactions. If they weren't logically working there would be nothing alive.