Cosmology: Latest theories of everything (Introduction)

by dhw, Friday, August 04, 2017, 10:10 (2450 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DHW: Faith: “strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp. without proof or evidence” (Encarta). Don’t get me wrong on this. I am not attacking faith. But it is obvious that the evidence either way is not strong enough to support a general consensus on the subjects we discuss and since, as you say, none of us can KNOW the truth, there has to come a point at which belief abandons reason. Hence irrationality. Faith is NOT the only alternative left. The alternative to faith is to remain open-minded. That obviously applies to the choice between chance and design, but I am even open-minded enough to consider forms of design that do not depend on David’s personal concept of a god.

TONY: Ah, but my old friend, even the option of remaining open-minded is a form of FAITH. It is FAITH that we WILL eventually have enough information to be able to, not make a choice, but to not NEED to make a choice because the answer is utterly obvious. And that is, to me, where your logic fails.

Ah, but my young and very dear friend, I’m sorry, this is a basic premise I totally repudiate. I have absolutely no faith that we will eventually have enough information etc. etc. If there is no God, which I regard as a 50/50 possibility, then I can see no way I can ever possibly know the truth. That’s it. There is no faith whatsoever, because I simply do not know what to believe. But if I have a revelation during my remaining years, I'll let you know!

TONY: Now, if you have no Faith in God, and are not Agnostic, then your only recourse is Evolution.

I’m sorry again, but this is a complete non sequitur. Evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with the existence of God. It is a theory concerning how different forms of life developed from earlier forms, as opposed to their having been separately created. It does not in any way preclude the existence of God, who may well have invented the whole system. Who says so? Darwin himself: “I see no good reason why the views given in this book should shock the religious feelings of any one.” (Origin of Species) You have fallen for atheistic neo-Darwinism, which I as an agnostic plus millions of your co-theists reject.

TONY: WHY are you afraid to commit to there being a God? Is it because if you have to commit to acknowledging that there is a God, then you must also make a choice between a Personal God or a Nebulous God?

I am not afraid to commit. I am unable to commit. But during our discussions on the hypothetical nature of a hypothetical God, I am happy to discuss its possible nature.

TONY: The idea of a Nebulous God is, in its own way, as terrifying as Evolution, because it means there is no point to any of this. And if there is no point, you have to answer hard questions about pain and suffering. What could possibly be worth all the pain and suffering in the world if all of this is pointless? Why bother?

Why do you find it terrifying? The world is as full of beauty and love as it is of pain and suffering. I deplore the pain and suffering, but I do not see my love for my family and friends as pointless, or human attempts to relieve pain and suffering as pointless, or life itself as pointless even if it ends when we die. I would rather be happy now than unhappy. Why is my, your, and everybody else’s quest for personal happiness pointless?

TONY: The choice of a personal God is even more terrifying, because then comes the question of accountability. Were we wrong? Did we make choices that make us too unworthy as to be be beyond redemption? Why did he allow all of this pain and suffering? What kind of special asshole must he to let it go on like this?

Good questions, and one cannot discount the terrifying possibility of a sadistic God, just as one cannot discount the possibility of a loving God or an indifferent God. But what stops me from making a choice is that none of the arguments for and against the existence of God are sufficiently convincing for me to take the leap of faith required to make a decision. I don’t know why this is so difficult for both theists and atheists to understand.

TONY: So, I would like to know why YOUR brand of faith is better or worse, in your eyes, then other brands of faith. And yes, it IS better in your eyes because it is the brand of faith YOU CHOSE. (I don't mean that to sound as caustic as it does, but I know no better way to phrase the question.)

No faith involved, as explained above. And I do not regard my inability to choose as better than your choice or the choice of an atheist. However, when theists or atheists present their arguments, I try to explain why I can’t share their faith, just as you try to explain to atheists and different brands of theists why you can’t share their faith.