Theistic evolution vs. Darwinism (Introduction)

by dhw, Sunday, June 16, 2013, 20:33 (3967 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Quantum reality starts with consciousness first-dhw: What exactly do you mean by "quantum reality"? Is there any consensus even among quantum theorists on what it means? Do you yourself believe that the reality you perceive does not exist if you are not there to perceive it? That cause and effect are an illusion? That everyday objects are not real? -DAVID: When an experiment is done the result can only give an answer sought, not the complete picture. Thus the results have to factor in conscious intent because only what is looked for is found. Do I believe that reality would disappear if all human consciousness disappeared? No. One simply takes my next step. Consciousness pre-existed reality and exists first.-I see no connection whatsoever between your "simple" next step and the experiments ... unless you're saying that reality is whatever you want it to be, and so because you want it to be the product of consciousness, it is the product of consciousness.
 
DAVID: All of the quantum theorists end up with that conclusion.-dhw: Do you mean that all quantum theorists accept the same definition of reality, and they have all concluded that it was created by a quantum mind, i.e. that consciousness preceded the material world? -DAVID: The theorists I follow believe as I do. Obviously they tend to be theistic.-Obviously. So it's not "all of the quantum theorists", it's only those whose opinions you agree with. Exit quantum theory as a scientific basis for your beliefs.-dhw: Of course this proves absolutely nothing. I am merely questioning the meaning and accuracy of your statements.-DAVID: My statements about quantum theory are correct. My statements of my conclusions are the correct conclusions for me. Consciousness is mixed up in quantum reality, the level underlying our perceived reality.-Consciousness is "mixed up" in our perception of reality, and we have no idea whether the material or quantum reality we consciously perceive corresponds to an objective reality. That is not the same as saying that consciousness ... any kind of consciousness, human or divine ... precedes reality, let alone creates it. But I do not doubt that they are the correct conclusions for you. The atheist physicists I listed in my last post would presumably say that their conclusions are the correct conclusions for them!