Theistic evolution vs. Darwinism (Introduction)

by dhw, Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 12:58 (4197 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Once more: matter does not INVENT intelligence. Energy makes matter. Matter changes. The energy within the matter BECOMES aware of the changes. ..... This is a concept I'm extending to all evolution, including the universe: individualized intelligence as energy which evolves through experience and is able to control matter from within. -DAVID: This theory looks exactly like the orgin of life theories. Life, as organic chemistry suddenly appears from inorganic matter, how we don't know, but it had to happen because we are here. Evolution is driven by intelligence in the genome as we agree, but as you noted in the other thread, we have no idea how. You want intelligence to grow by chance. No matter how you spin it it still sounds the same. Intelligence by chance arrival.-You don't how your God got there, how he acquired his intelligence, what he is like, or "how He arranged the start of life". But according to you, he has to be there because we are here. I have no problem with your incredulity over my panpsychist hypothesis. I don't believe it either. I merely offer it as an alternative to your own equally incredible theory (see also below).
 
DAVID: I have to start with some type of organization.-dhw: Why do you "have" to start with organization? Why not start with disorder, and a gradual establishment of order (rules) through the experience and experiments of evolving intelligences?-DAVID: What records experience and developing intelligence in disorder? The Second Law reqires the input of energy into order to avoid entropy, and you start with disordered energy. The whole thought is an oxymoron.-An oxymoron would be disorderly order or orderly disorder, but I am suggesting order being created (panpsychistically) out of disorder. Of course I'm in no position to argue the merits of original order versus original disorder, but the following suggests that our universe began in chaos:-	www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100907171642.htm-"Seven years ago Northwestern University physicist Adilson E. Motter conjectured that the expansion of the universe at the time of the big bang was highly chaotic. Now he and a colleague have proven it using rigorous mathematical arguments." -"Proven" is a powerful word, but I'm clearly not alone in thinking that chaos may have preceded order. -DAVID: But, simply put, there is no way you could possibly believe in this contrived theory and have faith in it. I understand your 'IF'. I don't have an 'if'. And the reason for your IF is the theory is one big contortion. Remember the folks who started the idea of panpsychism presumed an intelligent beginning. You have twisted their thinking all out of shape and into contortion.-No, the reason for my "if" is that I am no more able to explain the origin of life and consciousness than you are. That is the gap at the heart of both our hypotheses (since your God is/was also alive and conscious). Otherwise the shape of mine seems far clearer to me than that of what I described in my earlier post as: "...a form of existence none of us know anything about ... a single "quantum mind" which is hidden behind a wall of quantum uncertainty, but dabbles in mysterious ways to fulfil a purpose which is also hidden." You say you don't have an "if". That is because you have a solid faith, not because your theory has any shape or rational basis.