My Experience with Buddhism Pt 4 (Agnosticism)
Matt: One last bit, as the characterization of Buddhism as a sort of misanthropic death cult is stronger than I realized.
There's a very famous Sutta, the "Kisa Gotami" Sutta where a woman comes to the Buddha with the body of her only son. She was so distraught that the villagers believed her to be fully mad.
She lays the body of her young son at the Buddha's feet and asks the Buddha to bring him back to life. The Buddha tells her, "We can do this, but only if you find a white mustard seed from a home that has never lost someone.
She then goes through the entire village on her hunt. By the time she has investigated the last house in the village, she realizes that death touches everyone.
She comes back to the Buddha, still saddened, and when the Buddha asks her how her search went, she kneels and weeps: "I understand now that death comeas for everyone." The Buddha gives her some small teaching, and then hugs her, both weeping.
I had no idea that the idea of Buddhism being about an uncaring nihilism was so pervasive. If the Buddha could weep at the loss of a mother's only child, and he was the most accomplished teacher of his age, then how can Buddhism be a death cult that suggests that the only escape for suffering is death?
I'm still waiting for my monk friend to call me back, but I believe I have a tentative answer to the reincarnation question. I will wait until the dust settles on these small points however. My apologies for taking up this much of your time!
I'm thrilled you have confided in us, allowing us such trust. Please continue with your teaching and comments about your self struggles.
Complete thread:
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xeno6696,
2022-12-10, 18:04
- In the interest of (maybe) a new discussion... -
David Turell,
2022-12-10, 19:03
- In the interest of (maybe) a new discussion... -
David Turell,
2022-12-10, 21:17
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xeno6696,
2022-12-10, 22:02
- In the interest of (maybe) a new discussion... - David Turell, 2022-12-11, 02:26
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xeno6696,
2022-12-10, 22:02
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David Turell,
2022-12-10, 21:17
- In the interest of (maybe) a new discussion... -
dhw,
2022-12-11, 14:44
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- In the interest of (maybe) a new discussion... -
dhw,
2022-12-11, 20:47
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David Turell,
2022-12-11, 22:33
- In the interest of (maybe) a new discussion... - xeno6696, 2022-12-13, 00:07
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xeno6696,
2022-12-12, 04:41
- In the interest of (maybe) a new discussion... -
dhw,
2022-12-12, 14:08
- In the interest of (maybe) a new discussion... - David Turell, 2022-12-12, 16:58
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David Turell,
2022-12-12, 16:51
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dhw,
2022-12-12, 14:08
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David Turell,
2022-12-11, 22:33
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xeno6696,
2022-12-13, 04:57
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dhw,
2022-12-13, 09:13
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- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-13, 16:18
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-13, 16:54
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-13, 18:46
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-14, 02:26
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-14, 03:42
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-14, 05:01
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-15, 03:39
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
dhw,
2022-12-15, 09:06
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-15, 16:13
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-15, 16:11
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
dhw,
2022-12-15, 09:06
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-15, 03:39
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
dhw,
2022-12-14, 13:45
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-14, 14:53
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-15, 14:59
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-15, 16:27
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
dhw,
2022-12-16, 08:24
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-16, 15:57
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-16, 16:26
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-16, 20:03
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
dhw,
2022-12-17, 10:08
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-17, 17:00
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-17, 20:23
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-18, 00:07
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
dhw,
2022-12-18, 13:48
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-18, 16:12
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-16, 16:26
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-17, 05:27
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-17, 15:50
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-16, 15:57
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-14, 05:01
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-14, 03:42
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-14, 02:26
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-13, 18:46
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-13, 16:54
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt. 2 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-13, 16:19
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt. 3 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-13, 16:24
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt. 3 - David Turell, 2022-12-13, 17:02
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt. 2 - David Turell, 2022-12-13, 17:00
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt. 3 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-13, 16:24
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 4 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-13, 21:25
- My Experience with Buddhism Pt 4 - David Turell, 2022-12-14, 02:36
- The Conversation Continues... -
David Turell,
2022-12-13, 15:46
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xeno6696,
2022-12-13, 18:55
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David Turell,
2022-12-14, 02:31
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xeno6696,
2022-12-14, 04:01
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xeno6696,
2022-12-14, 04:01
- The Conversation Continues... -
David Turell,
2022-12-14, 02:31
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xeno6696,
2022-12-13, 18:55
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dhw,
2022-12-13, 09:13
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-17, 22:16
- Rebirth Attempt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-18, 00:13
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
dhw,
2022-12-18, 14:06
- Rebirth Attempt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-18, 16:18
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-19, 20:09
- Rebirth Attempt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-19, 22:43
- Errata to Attempt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-19, 23:57
- Errata to Attempt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-20, 02:36
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-19, 20:10
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-19, 22:52
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-19, 23:54
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-20, 02:33
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-20, 15:40
- Rebirth Attempt 1 - David Turell, 2022-12-21, 00:22
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-20, 15:40
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-20, 02:33
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
xeno6696,
2022-12-19, 23:54
- Rebirth PART ONE -
dhw,
2022-12-20, 09:04
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dhw,
2022-12-20, 09:10
- Rebirth PART TWO - David Turell, 2022-12-20, 16:17
- Rebirth PART ONE - David Turell, 2022-12-20, 16:14
- Rebirth PART ONE -
xeno6696,
2022-12-22, 03:59
- Rebirth PART ONE -
dhw,
2022-12-22, 09:35
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- Rebirth PART ONE -
xeno6696,
2022-12-22, 23:26
- Rebirth PART ONE -
dhw,
2022-12-23, 12:47
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- Rebirth PART ONE -
dhw,
2022-12-23, 12:47
- Rebirth PART ONE -
David Turell,
2022-12-22, 18:57
- Rebirth PART ONE -
xeno6696,
2022-12-22, 23:31
- Rebirth PART ONE -
David Turell,
2022-12-23, 16:01
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
David Turell,
2024-05-10, 18:19
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
xeno6696,
2024-05-10, 20:42
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
David Turell,
2024-05-10, 22:12
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
xeno6696,
2024-05-11, 05:40
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
dhw,
2024-05-11, 08:43
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
xeno6696,
2024-05-14, 16:01
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
David Turell,
2024-05-15, 00:09
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
xeno6696,
2024-05-15, 00:48
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children - David Turell, 2024-05-15, 15:40
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
xeno6696,
2024-05-15, 00:48
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
dhw,
2024-05-15, 09:48
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-15, 16:02
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- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
dhw,
2024-05-16, 11:26
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-16, 11:42
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-16, 20:14
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - xeno6696, 2024-05-16, 21:34
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-16, 21:16
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-17, 13:58
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-17, 15:45
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-17, 18:55
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-17, 21:36
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-18, 16:00
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-18, 16:15
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-18, 17:49
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-18, 16:15
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-18, 16:00
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-17, 21:36
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
dhw,
2024-05-18, 08:53
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-18, 10:24
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-18, 16:23
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-18, 17:53
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-18, 16:48
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-18, 16:23
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-18, 15:57
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-05-18, 16:52
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-19, 13:25
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-19, 16:24
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-19, 18:50
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - xeno6696, 2024-05-19, 21:24
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-20, 09:43
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-20, 18:13
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-20, 21:39
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-20, 21:47
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-20, 22:05
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-21, 12:15
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-21, 16:35
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-21, 17:29
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-21, 21:22
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-21, 23:38
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-21, 21:22
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-22, 12:41
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-22, 18:03
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-22, 22:09
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-23, 14:11
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-23, 20:40
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-24, 02:01
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-24, 17:04
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-24, 18:53
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-25, 20:49
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-24, 18:53
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-25, 13:33
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-25, 21:44
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-25, 21:49
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-26, 08:49
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-26, 17:07
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-26, 17:37
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-28, 22:14
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-28, 23:34
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-28, 22:14
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-26, 17:37
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-26, 17:09
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-26, 17:44
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - xeno6696, 2024-05-28, 22:18
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
dhw,
2024-05-27, 11:47
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-27, 11:53
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-27, 17:05
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-28, 22:27
- Mat: Nibbana tangent part 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-28, 23:39
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-28, 22:27
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - xeno6696, 2024-05-28, 22:24
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-27, 17:05
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
David Turell,
2024-05-27, 16:56
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-28, 23:25
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-05-28, 23:53
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
dhw,
2024-05-29, 13:14
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-29, 13:25
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-29, 18:18
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-29, 23:28
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-30, 00:26
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-30, 00:30
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-30, 06:06
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-30, 19:07
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-30, 06:06
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-30, 00:30
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-30, 00:26
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-05-29, 18:15
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-29, 22:54
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-05-30, 00:21
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
dhw,
2024-05-30, 13:46
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-30, 13:53
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-30, 20:12
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - xeno6696, 2024-05-31, 00:43
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-05-30, 20:09
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-30, 23:00
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
dhw,
2024-05-31, 12:45
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - dhw, 2024-05-31, 12:54
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-05-31, 16:44
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-06-08, 16:22
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-06-08, 16:44
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
dhw,
2024-06-09, 12:18
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-06-09, 17:16
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
dhw,
2024-05-31, 12:45
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-30, 13:53
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-29, 13:25
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-28, 23:25
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-28, 22:51
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-05-28, 23:43
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-27, 11:53
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-26, 17:44
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-26, 17:15
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-26, 17:07
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-26, 16:41
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-28, 23:02
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-28, 23:46
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-28, 23:02
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-26, 08:49
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-24, 17:04
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-24, 02:01
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-23, 20:40
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-23, 19:52
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-24, 02:08
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-24, 17:12
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-24, 02:08
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-23, 14:11
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-23, 00:24
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-23, 20:00
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-21, 17:29
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-21, 17:17
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-21, 16:35
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-20, 21:47
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-19, 18:50
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-19, 16:25
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-19, 18:57
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-19, 21:43
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-20, 18:07
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-19, 21:43
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-19, 18:57
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-19, 16:31
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-19, 16:24
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-05-18, 16:42
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-18, 10:24
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-17, 18:55
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 - David Turell, 2024-05-17, 18:48
- A brief word on methodology. -
xeno6696,
2024-05-18, 02:16
- A brief word on methodology. - David Turell, 2024-05-18, 16:03
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-17, 15:45
- Nibbana tangent parts 1 & 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-17, 13:58
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-16, 21:16
- Nibbana tangent part 1 - David Turell, 2024-05-17, 18:41
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
dhw,
2024-05-16, 11:42
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-15, 16:02
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-15, 17:08
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-15, 17:53
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-16, 18:13
- Nibbana tangent part 2 - xeno6696, 2024-05-16, 22:07
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-16, 18:13
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-15, 17:53
- Nibbana tangent part 2 -
David Turell,
2024-05-15, 17:08
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children - David Turell, 2024-05-15, 16:46
- Nibbana tangent part 1 -
xeno6696,
2024-05-15, 16:02
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
David Turell,
2024-05-15, 00:09
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
xeno6696,
2024-05-14, 16:01
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children - David Turell, 2024-05-11, 18:29
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
dhw,
2024-05-11, 08:43
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
xeno6696,
2024-05-11, 05:40
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
David Turell,
2024-05-10, 22:12
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
xeno6696,
2024-05-10, 20:42
- Rebirth PART ONE: evidence in young children -
David Turell,
2024-05-10, 18:19
- Rebirth PART ONE -
David Turell,
2022-12-23, 16:01
- Rebirth PART ONE -
xeno6696,
2022-12-22, 23:31
- Rebirth PART ONE -
dhw,
2022-12-22, 09:35
- Rebirth PART TWO -
dhw,
2022-12-20, 09:10
- Rebirth Attempt 1 -
David Turell,
2022-12-19, 22:52
- In the interest of (maybe) a new discussion... -
David Turell,
2022-12-10, 19:03