Pointy eggs and whales (Evolution)

by GateKeeper , Sunday, September 23, 2018, 12:05 (2251 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: First cause unconsciousness somehow evolving consciousness is just as logical or illogical or believable or unbelievable as first cause consciousness somehow just being there, but they are both first causes.

David: Agreed, and you can't pick one.

GK: yup. People that force us to pick one or the other are the problem. The answer is clearly, a definitely, maybe, either or both.

David; Let's start with the premise that there is/was a 'first cause', not its type. Will you accept that much?

GK: for me, the first cause is an unknown. any conclusion on 'first cause", being "something" or "nothing" is a line of logic based on "nobody knows". It's a flawed conclusion and does nothing for the best descriptors he can have on how the universe works.

we are here now and we can safely assume we came from the universe. The best if/then statement I can come up with is "if we classify humans as alive and the universe is more complex, then how do we classify it?" non-life? really?

Tony: In what way do you suggest that the Universe is more complex than life? (Seriously, no sarcasm, I am just trying to wrap my head around what you actually believe, and sometimes language gets in the way.) At scale, how is it any more complex than solar-system sized Atoms?

GK: yeah, sorry 'bout the writing. I write as if I am talking I guess.

Lets start off with the basics. How can humans be more complex than the biosphere?

You really haven't answered my premise: a first cause is by definition the start of everything. Can you get something from nothing? I know the first cause is an unknown, but in your way of thinking must there be a first cause?

I don't know enough to say there must be a first cause. The universe either started from 'something" or it started from 'nothing". If it started from something I have no idea what that something is. A lab technician making the universe isn't what I would use as my final conclusion, yet.

I think I told you, if I had to pick a start, I would go with the notion of "born". It just fits the observations the best for me. so my first cause would be "birth of the universe" from "life" before it. It's not much, but its all I gotz.