Pointy eggs and whales (Evolution)

by dhw, Thursday, August 30, 2018, 08:09 (111 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DHW [re pointy eggs]: ...please tell us your own theory: Did your God preprogramme them to do it, do a dabble, or install a mechanism enabling organisms to adapt autonomously to their environment?

TONY: I hypothesize that they were originally programmed with the possibility of round to pointy, with specific triggers(input parameters) that would invoke the changes necessary to go from one type, to another.

Does this mean that when your God created the root type, he put in a kind of computer programme for round AND pointy eggs (plus every other possible variation within that original root type), and when the murre settled on a slope, the computer programme automatically switched to pointy, thereby reshaping the cloaca? Just making sure I’ve understood, so please correct any misunderstandings.

DAVID: Your just-so story implies gradual changes. […] Either the gaps are true or the fossils for your story are not available. Available current evidence is on my side.

dhw: […] does available evidence really support your claim that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed eight stages of whalehood, or that he dabbled with all the pre-whales before they entered the water, and then over millions of years did seven more dabbles with all the intermediate whales to produce modern forms of whale?

DAVID: All we can do is make reasonable hypotheses based on available evidence. A designing mind is required. It is still chance or design, and even you reject chance.

That does not mean available current evidence favours your “just-so story” over mine.

TONY: I claim that the observed gaps denote gaps; the observed sudden appearance of species fully formed.

DHW: Nobody has ever observed the sudden appearance of a species fully formed! There are gaps. That’s it.

TONY: Wrong. The cambrian explosion is just that, species appearing fully formed out of nowhere, and thus the basis for punctuated equilibrium.

We observe gaps, not root types appearing out of nowhere! Punctuated equilibrium means long periods of stasis, broken by sudden bursts of creative activity. Nothing to do with out-of-nowhere. I can’t solve the Cambrian mystery any more than you can, but here is a website with answers you will reject and evolutionists will accept, both of you because of “confirmation bias”. Nobody knows the truth.

Does the Cambrian Explosion pose a challenge to evolution?

SAMPLE QUOTES: This important period in the history of life extended over millions of years, plenty of time for the evolution of these new body plans (phyla) to occur.

Scientists are now gaining a better understanding of what existed before the Cambrian Explosion as a result of new fossil discoveries. […] Some of the new fossil discoveries, in fact, appear to be more primitive precursors of the later Cambrian body plans. The discovery of such precursors shows that the Cambrian organisms did not appear from thin air.

DHW: […] conserved genes can be taken as evidence of common descent, not as a prior assumption.

TONY: That is logically incorrect. […] .

DHW: If, say, 90% of chimp genes are the same as human genes, why is it illogical to propose that they share a common ancestor?

TONY: That number has been steadily dropping and now hovers around 80%, and it largely depends on which part of the genome they compare.

I don’t care what part of the genome they compare or if it's 90% or 80%. I'm asking why it is illogical to propose that the same genes may indicate they had a common ancestor.

DAVID: The so-called cell intelligence is based on definite evidence of what can be seen as logical responses of cells to stimuli. These responses can obviously be planned and automatic. They are shown to be a series of molecular reactions.

DHW: As with all our fellow creatures (e.g. the parrots you tell us about on another thread), we judge intelligence by behaviour. Behaviour always entails molecular reactions of some kind, as these are what enable organisms – including ourselves – to demonstrate intelligence!

DAVID: Parrots are not cells! They have brains. Straw man argument.

You have misunderstood. I said we judge intelligence by behaviour – whether it’s humans, parrots or bacteria.

TONY: Behavior is not as telling as choice. Can the organisms CHOOSE to do other than the prescribed chemical reactions? Do they show evidence of planning?

Most of the “cognitive” tests offer choice of some kind. Why are bacteria killed by antibiotics until they find modes of resistance? Are the “prescribed chemical reactions” that Billy will go glug and die, while Bobby finds a solution? There has to be choice. My view of evolution is that changes are not planned in advance but are triggered by environmental needs and/or opportunities.

DAVID: If dhw accepted planning He would creep closer to God. For me planning and design are obvious. It is what changed my views.

We agree on design of some kind. I do not believe that your God changed organismal structures in advance of the environmental changes those structures would be used for. I’d be interested to know if Tony thinks his God controls the environment, and if he specially created root types in advance of or in response to environmental change.

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