Pointy eggs and whales (Evolution)

by David Turell @, Saturday, September 15, 2018, 19:15 (92 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DHW: The point beyond which we cannot experiment is the point at which all our discussions begin. First of all, just to clarify, DHW does not think YOU cannot make a choice. DHW himself cannot make a choice! I have no objection at all to anyone making a choice, provided their choice does not harm other people. “You must answer the question…” raises two points for me: 1) What is the question? 2) Nobody “must” answer any question, let alone one that is unanswerable!

Tony:Choosing not to make a choice is a choice. It's a choice not to have faith in anything.

DHW You say the choice is between materialisticality and spirituality. If find this misleading, as is the surprising claim that science is our evidence. Science is only equipped to deal with the material world, and it is therefore highly debatable whether it can explain some of the things which are most precious to us as human beings and which are in some way connected to the unexplained phenomenon of consciousness (I include emotions, aesthetics, imagination, reason).


Tony: The fact that it can not explain so much, and never will be able to, is precisely why it is (admittedly in an unintuitive fashion) the best evidence.

DHW Nor can science explain certain psychic phenomena, such as those in which the person concerned acquires information which he/she could not possibly have known at the time. I myself have no idea whether materials are able to CREATE these forms of spirituality, or they are part of a different reality which does not depend on materials, or materials themselves have some form of innate mental aspect (panpsychism) which has gradually evolved, or there is one superspirit that created the whole shebang out of its own energy. Only the last of these is “religious”. The only way I shall ever know is if these “spiritual” elements of myself survive the death of the body.


Tony: If you will note, the point I was referring to is the point of faith. Faith is "he assured expectation of things though not beheld". In short, it is believing without seeing. Choosing not to believe is choosing not to have faith, even if you follow it with the statement that you are not choosing to disbelieve. That is why I said it is a false third option.

I'm with dhw. Choosing to be neutral is a valid option. It means abandoning the thought of first cause as a valid consideration.


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