Pointy eggs and whales (Evolution)

by David Turell @, Saturday, September 15, 2018, 16:12 (697 days ago) @ dhw

TONY: There comes a point beyond which you can not experiment, and never will be able to. This is the point of faith. No matter what you believe, when you reach that point you must answer the question in your own mind and heart. Science is our evidence in this spiritual court of law. It is the evidence that we have to work with. DHW thinks that you can not make a choice, and hence a good agnostic. However, not making a choice is also a choice. The choice is binary. Do you have faith (the assured expectation of things to come though not beheld) in materialisticality, or in spirituality. Note, this is religiously agnostic.

dhw: The point beyond which we cannot experiment is the point at which all our discussions begin. First of all, just to clarify, DHW does not think YOU cannot make a choice. DHW himself cannot make a choice! I have no objection at all to anyone making a choice, provided their choice does not harm other people. “You must answer the question…” raises two points for me: 1) What is the question? 2) Nobody “must” answer any question, let alone one that is unanswerable! You say the choice is between materialisticality and spirituality. If find this misleading, as is the surprising claim that science is our evidence. Science is only equipped to deal with the material world, and it is therefore highly debatable whether it can explain some of the things which are most precious to us as human beings and which are in some way connected to the unexplained phenomenon of consciousness (I include emotions, aesthetics, imagination, reason). Nor can science explain certain psychic phenomena, such as those in which the person concerned acquires information which he/she could not possibly have known at the time. I myself have no idea whether materials are able to CREATE these forms of spirituality, or they are part of a different reality which does not depend on materials, or materials themselves have some form of innate mental aspect (panpsychism) which has gradually evolved, or there is one superspirit that created the whole shebang out of its own energy. Only the last of these is “religious”. The only way I shall ever know is if these “spiritual” elements of myself survive the death of the body.

DAVID (to GK): Your view is quite clear. You think all the laws of nature are natural, but I see you don't wonder where they came from.

GK: I do wonder, I am a science guy. I wonder every day of my life. I just understand that we do not know and will not know for some time….

dhw: If ever. A round of applause from me. I always find it extraordinary that so many people think that because agnostics admit to not knowing the answers, they don’t ask the questions!

GK: […]I actually don't care as much as I used to, the discoveries in the last ten years point the universe being life itself. we are just part of an endless series of events. the universe is quantum computing right now, in fact, it is quantum computing you and me. The question is "did it self-organize?" or "Does it have surroundings that formed it in the same manner the biosphere formed us?" both are unknowns, I accept that, but I do wonder.

dhw: I’m not sure what you mean by the universe having “surroundings”, or by the observation about the universe being life itself. For me the question is whether the universe and its materials self-organized, which included life itself, or there is some form of intelligence that did the organizing.

Logically I strongly doubt inanimate material can self-organize into living matter. It is a matter of complexity. Life is so much more complex in organization than inanimate matter.

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